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Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
stretching the compas vs out of compas
Hi there guys, I hear pple talking about stretching the compas in solea/seguiriyas (for solo guitar) especially.
How do you define stretching the compas and when does stretching the compas fall into out of compas? and how do you define stretching vs being out of compas?
Is solea and seguiriyas the only 2 form that you can 'stretch' in solo guitar?
RE: stretching the compas vs out of ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
I also have thought about this... i came to the conclusion that stretchings are bigger and smaller accelerations. In Escobillas you always have speed ups, so it would be "densing". Only difference to speed ups in Solea etc is that it is very linear, homogenous. Stretching compas in Solea is more like a micro-speed up (or slow down) for me. It is countable, danceable, playable because the meter or beats are preserved. And that is also the difference to being out of compas, where usually beats are skipped or added. They disappear "miraculously" because the performer has lost the meter, or rhythmic feeling.
About other palos... i dont know how to put it, but stretchings only fit some palos, like Solea etc they have a certain attitude to them. In Bulerias i want to see how a player acts against a constant beat, the groove. If there are too much different speeds, it kills the groove. IMO.
RE: stretching the compas vs out of ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
Good question...Sabicas fell out of compas in Solea and Seguiriyas all the time. Many Jerez players play seguiriyas practically libre. I think stretching the compas and even being somewhat out of compas or tempo are basically essential when playing these palos solo. For me persoanally, where it crosses the line is when I feel that they did it by accident or I feel that they CAN'T play in compas. Like with Sabicas it doesn't bother me because his sense of tempo is so incredibly good, and you know he can play in compas but just likes to take some liberties here and there. But somebody like Manitas de Plata who consistently plays the same 14 -beat Solea riff... you can tell he's just not getting it
In short I think compas is a state of mind...a good player can stretch to the point of dropping or adding beats, but still be considered "in" if you can tell he knows what he's doing.
As to other palos, I think you can also stretch a little in Tientos
RE: stretching the compas vs out of ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
quote:
solea/seguiriyas (for solo guitar)
It's possible to have a strong feeling of compas and have the tempo being stretched at the same time. it's not at all the same as having free time or the guitar player not knowing what he's doing. In fact it takes a strong feeling for compas to pull it off well. Stretching can be more extreme por seguiriyas, por solea a bit more subtle works best I think, more like playing behind some of the down beats for accenting.
Often in solo guitar seguiriyas is in more metered time. eg "Amanecer" Pepe Habichuela
Timing is stretched by the cante especially por seguiriyas. If you listen to older recordings you'll hear this, you can hear how the stretching makes sense with the singing. e.g. "Por Cositas Malas" or "Hermanito Mio' Camaron toque Paco de Lucia
More modern cante por seguiriyas can be strictly metered and faster eg-
"Bendita Sea" Montse Cortes toque Ramon Jimenez "Háblame Con Franqueza" La Macanita toque Diego del Morao "Acontecio" El Pele toque Vicente Amigo "Seguirilla De Los Tiempos" Enrique Morente
All good players have their own personal feeling for the beat even when playing in perfect metre. This can be modulated, playing fractionally ahead/behind the beat is a strong means of musical expression.
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: stretching the compas vs out of ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
I think the real bottom line issue is maintaining the right accents and projecting the proper feel of the toque. That, and control and intention. That’s what holds everything together and makes it “work”, whether playing at a steady tempo or stretching and playing with rubato.
You could play a metronomically precise solea with all the right chord changes in all the right places, and all the usual melodic “stuff” that you expect to hear in a solea, all perfectly fit into a twelve beat cycle, but if you played it totally flat, without accents, and without the feel of solea, it wouldn’t really work, in the best possible sense. Definitely ain’t no one gonna wanna dance to it. Play the same solea, but with solid accents and a solea pulse that everyone can feel and follow, and then you can get away with stretching the tempo (within reason, and within the context of what you’re doing). I think it all boils down to whether it’s done with deliberate intention in a controlled manner, and if what’s being played has a palpable pulse and feel that can be followed.
RE: stretching the compas vs out of ... (in reply to srshea)
I recently did a lot of practice accompanying siguiriyas with old recordings. Siguiriyas can be sung and played so freely that because the singer is listening to the guitarist on the recording and not you it's almost impossible to practice correctly. I tested with a singer and got an okay though, so it must have done some good...
If it's a falseta for dance without footwork it has to be very clear what you're doing, with footwork it has to be in compás and the dancer is defining the rhythm, not you. Otherwise it really is okay to play freely as long as the accents sit in a way that still give the feeling of the palo.
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