Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
OK. Everybody loves Bulerías and Tangos. Everybody does.... including all the Flamencos I hear on Ondajerez. Solea por Bulerias, Fandangos and Alegrias.... Occasionaly Soleares and (seldom) Siguiriyas....
Guajiras and Zapateado have been rediscovered by a few notables including Emilio Maya.
But what are the styles you hate most?
On my own hate list , and have been for a while now... are:-
Farruca..... The sheer Joy of any Flamenco student playing to a bunch of Culture Vultures! Not actually Flamenco, but from the North of Spain and "Flamencoised". Utterly predictable and boring.
Probably the best recordings of all time? Sabicas and Paco de Lucia IMO. Nothing since.
Zambra, (The Moorish Dance). (God help us!)
The most utterly boring thing that Flamenco has ever embraced. Apart from the opening few bars of Moorish style open tuning and dissonance, there is nowhere else to go except playing those same monotonous chords over and over, such that if you had a gun, you'd happily shoot the guitarist. LOL!
Sabicas did a really good Zambra in a recording from the 50's. He kept it short, with some nice key changes, but required overdubbing at the studio to make it work. The only Zambra that's ever been any good IMO.
The next candidate for the bullet are the Tarantas merchants!
The opening chords.... great! "Hey this is going to be some serious stuff". Unfortunately most often turns out to be a serious yawn.... (Christ, can this guy finish so I can get out for a smoke LOL!)
At one time I wasn't into Sevillanas, but now I'm beginning to see the light. Again it's not "Flamenco", but "Flamencoized" Andalucian Folk Music. But it is very "Flamenco" sounding, and from the Saura film has many facets and possibilities. So I have a very open, if not positive mind to this style.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
Yes, Ron, Carmen Amaya was famous for her Zambras, if I recall, but I have never heard it.
As far as my Peores del Mundo Flamenquito, I have to say that Farruca is a monotonous, horrible thing.... why knows why they even bothered importing it into flamenco. Solo guitarists doing boring tarantas is a horrible thing--learn alegrias first, joker! And have you ever heard Tanguillos? There is a terror that really shows all the worst elements of folk music. I hate how they always end the Alegrias nowadays on that weak, tepid E9 chord. Ug, please not the E9 chord. And I hate guitarists who never play a fast scale on their albums. Not even one... You have to do at least one to show that you can.
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
Well pets hates, I used to dislike Zapateado, rumba, tanguillos, and Farucca, tilL I played at a wedding and a simle tanguillos went down a treat, lol. And the Rumba went even better, especially as there was a Spanish family there, who started doing the palmas and then we were off LOL
But I have heard a Zapateado played to a musicaly educated audience to a standing ovation, and on other occasions just a bit of polite appluase...I think I dont really have any hates towards any of the styles of falmenco. But I'll let you know if I find any.
I think like the Farruca if the audience and the performer and dancer are in the mood then it can take off and create a storm, but it all depends on the context etc...
I dont have any hates as yet..
Hey Ron that flamenco master thing you made is brilliant, I've been working with it on a Soleares and it gives it so much more, it fills all the gaps and gives one so much room to play around with..
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Guest)
I think we were talking about what we hated, not what we liked. Let me add to my list of what I don't like...people who take every opportunity to take shots at guitarists and remind them that "in Spain, the guitarist is nothing, the cante is everything, then the dance, then the sherry, then the person who plays the top of the barrel, then, finally the guitarist." My perspective, living in America, is--yes, we get it... flamenco is about the cante.
Another thing that gets on my nerves is some people who seem to take a shot at Vicente Amigo about every time they can. I feel Vicente Amigo has paid his dues in the flamenco community and music scene and should be allowed to play whatever he wants without being gratuitiously criticized.
Posts: 6447
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Skai)
quote:
'danceable' Rumbas.
... and clappable. Still, I can't knock it, it was the Gypsy Kings got me pointed in the right direction to buy a used copy of "The Rough Guide to Flamenco" CD in Amsterdam. Hey what is all that wierd singing?
I don't think I hate any particular flamenco form, just some people's interpretation of it, including my own
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
I like all of it. And to answer Sean, I love cante. That's what got me into flamenco long before I decided to pick up a nylon string guitar (cante is infact, what made me want to try to learn to play flamenco, I wanted to play along).
I'm surprised to hear people voicing that they don't like elements in flamenco music. Perhaps you're either focused on the wrong things or it has become too much of a technical exercise for you and no longer about expression. Peter is absolutely correct, it is the HOW you play aspect of it. I don't understand your various dislikes unless you treat flamenco as just another genre you can play along with the others you know rather than your focus and passion.
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Jamey)
quote:
I'm surprised to hear people voicing that they don't like elements in flamenco music
Why Jamey ? I dont like anything that is too spanish clasically sounding ( pretty ) like Guajiras, Zapateado is just a personal preference. I also dont like any dance with a fan or castanets. Sorry but i make no apologies for my taste :)
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
I can't stand Zambra, Taranta can be very boring as well as very interesting depending on who plays it. On the other hand I like Farruca and Sevilliana.
Now that we are on subject let me tell you that I find cante the single most contradicting element of Flamenco. Most of the flamenco singers sing out of tune for my ears and have bad quality of voice (Gypsy Kings singer comes to mind :). However there are a few who sing properly i.e. Remedios Amaya.
The lyrics are also mostly meaningless: mi corazon, ay ay ay, mi corazoooooon :)
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
Yea!
After 30 minutes of jumping around and slapping feet frantically to Farruca, Taranta, Zambra or Sevillianas there's a big finish, lots of exertion, huge applause, dancer exillerated, huge smile, bursting with sweat, eyes shut soaking up the air, takes a bow and farts in your face.
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
I'm surprised too...
What's wrong with farruca? I heard a story where Carmen Amaya danced farruca in a hall filled with critics. She almost didn't move, all her focus was directed within a few square meters. Subtle gracious hip movement in ultimate introversion, followed by a desplante that could've outvoiced an airplane. BAM! Flamenco! And when she greeted the public that didn't dare to move or make a sound, not even jaleo, for the full ten minutes of her performance, numerous people burst out in tears. There wasn't a single arm hair in the room that wasn't raised.
Carmen Amaya por farruca.
Also, I heard interpretations of taranta that seriously held me in shock even minutes after the last F# had died out. Listen to Camaron. (actually, always listen to Camaron). Also 'mas obscuro que la noche' by Diego el Cigala I think. The conversation with the darkness of the mines. What an amazing cante.
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Tenshu)
quote:
Also, I heard interpretations of taranta that seriously held me in shock even minutes after the last F# had died out. Listen to Camaron. (actually, always listen to Camaron).
Can we get our eyes back on the ball here guys? Por Favor.
Before you all go off and make your own interpretatations of the original question.
I said "Mainly Solos".
I'm talking about a guy playing solo Flamenco guitar, solo, that is on his own, trying to entertain a crowd with no singer or dancer.
That is *solo* in the sense that there is no singer or dancer. Nada! Not even a guy sneaking out a bit of Cante from behind the curtain, or a dancer "streaking" onto the stage to do a couple of passes.
This is pretty seriously "solo".
Mentionings of Camaron or Remedios Amaya etc are irrelevant, since they do not play solo guitar (as far as I know).
What I'm talking about is an ordinary guy (maybe an "advanced" Student), but not Paco de Lucia or Vincente Amigo or Tomatito or Manolo Sanlucar etc.
What I'm saying is that when I hear one of these "ordinary" guys start to play Farruca or Zambra or Tarantas, I get one of those "heart sink" moments LOL!
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
Ron, I know what you are talking about. The first strains of Farruca in the hands of a mediocre soloist is a horrible thing indeed. Although I don't want to hear a Rondena from him either.
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
Farruca by a mediocre soloist? Nah that's nothing. Try a combined guitar and harmonica ensemble version I had the misfortune of playing for a school concert. Imagine.. the guitars going E Am E Am Dm Am E Am.. then the ear piercing harmonicas playing a boring melody with the guitars.. A lump of MESS.. Just who chose it as a finale piece?! And to think the audience asked for an encore. What did we play? FARRUCA..
Thank goodness the concert gave me a chance to play some nice guitar ensemble pieces and the most memorable, Juan Serrano's rumba together with another guitar rhythm and a conga player.
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
What I'm talking about is an ordinary guy (maybe an "advanced" Student), but not Paco de Lucia or Vincente Amigo or Tomatito or Manolo Sanlucar etc.
What I'm saying is that when I hear one of these "ordinary" guys start to play Farruca or Zambra or Tarantas, I get one of those "heart sink" moments LOL!
Well Ron, if you put it that way, it's all a bore. It takes a really good player to do solo flamenco guitar justice-especially if the listener is someone who is an aficianado. Even buleria can be seriously lacking without palmas-even the top guys have them on most of their recordings. I think Tarantas has a lot more possiblities than zambra, or farruca, but those solos can be good if the player does something unexpected and well, good. Farruca as a solo, I think your right, but as you say then here comes PdL and it's great. Last solo concert I went to was PdL. Before that it was Vicente Amigo. And both of them had others performing with them. In fact the biggest reactions from the crowd came when people danced or sang. I think the solo concert of flamenco guitar is a thing of the past.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
Mark, I think solo guitar is boring, too. It's just not a dynamic instrument...sort of like going to a solo harp concert. But as part of an ensemble, the guitar brings a lot to the table!
By the way, Mark, I have set my sights on the Bose PAS. I am drooling...when I get enough money I am going to pounce. Have you seen it?
Posts: 2006
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I've heard a lot about the bose, but haven't heard it. I'm more into recording gear at the moment. i just got logic 7 and have ordered a couple of rode small condensers. Now I need a new mac! Also, I just bought a new guitar-one of the last production model left handed Paul Reed Smiths! Rock on baby! I hope to start a CD soon with all kinds of guitar all over the place.
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
I think solo guitar is boring, too.
Makes me wonder why we're here?
Good flamenco playing's a fantastic thing and to be there and see it played live right in front of you is a fantastic thing.
I know however that others don't see it that way. My wee group Deseo, we play a gig and everyone goes quiet when the dancer comes on. She goes off for a dress change and the crowd take that as a chance to go to the bar for a drink or the loo for a pee. Not that my guitar solo's riveting or great or anything, just that they see solo guitar as, well! boring, so might be you're right?
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
I think solo guitar is boring, too. It's just not a dynamic instrument...
Ah! You young guys! LOL!
Jim Opfer gave me an old tape of Paco de Lucia playing in what was basically a Folk Club up in Scotland in the 70's. Very informal, with folk just sitting around a fire. Jeez...you ought to hear this... Just a young guy, a guitar...and nothing else! His rhythm and drive and harmony were so much that he was his own second guitarist and cajon player and palmeros all rolled into one! As well as playing incredible falsetas and lightning picado. Definitely *not* boring, but jaw dropping. LOL!
RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Fo... (in reply to Ron.M)
I can't believe you people are giving the flamenco guitarist so much flack Give us a chance LOL...
I remember on one occasion being in a village pub that had an acoutice evening, with loads of people playing folk music and stuff, and the pub audience chatted all through it, and then I played a simple Granainas melody (you ca hear it on my we page) and they all went silent!!! So they liked the solo flamenco guitar.
I dont think there is anything as sublime as the solo guitar, it has an amazing sound, a personal sound, that is not found on any other instrument, like keyboard for instance, or the violin, with the guitar, the guitarist touches the strings with both hands giving it that personal touch and sound, what other instrument does this apart from the voice?
The fact that there are many new guitarists struggling to play flamenco, and sound not so good, surley we should encourage them as they may one day be the new paco's, or Juan de parsnips!!
I know that flamenco guitar without the palmas, singer, dancer is incomplete, but hey! we are all doing our best with what little resources we have. I would love to have palmas whilst doing a solo gig, but find anyone who can do it is aproblem over here in the uk..
The Palmas with solo guitar are brilliant like Tomatito and PDL, and they give it an extra dimension which is missing without it.. And helps the soloist to know where the compas is, Yep they too rely on visual or aural cues to know where the ten is, and we try and do it without!!?? LOL
Anyhow I love flamenco guitar by itself, it is pure and raw, and can not hide behind a singer dancer or palmas.
Printable Version
LOL 
I am a bit surprised that you are so surprised
LOL... 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread