Qualities Inherent in Different Rosewoods for a Negra

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BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

Qualities Inherent in Different Rose...

A couple of years ago I had Vicente Carrillo make a flamenca negra to my specifications, which included Madagascar rosewood back and sides. It has a wonderful sound, and the Madagascar rosewood is beautiful, with its reddish tinge.

I would be interested in the opinions of members of this forum (many of whom are far more knowledgable than I) regarding the qualities inherent in the various rosewoods used in negras. Aside from the aesthetics (Madagascar reddish, Indian nearly black, etc.) what are the differences in sound/tonal quality? How would any of you rate the various rosewoods for flamenca negras? I know that they are all used, but there must be some differences, and I would like to know what those differences are.

Many thanks in advance for any opinions or thoughts on the subject.

Cheers,

Bill

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2010 15:51:58

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Basically, I think the well known rosewoods, like Indian, Braz, Madagascar, Honduras have the same quality.
The problem nowadays is more how well its been cut and a lot of cheating.

For the moment, I wont use Braz. Its a total cheat what is going on with a lot of whatever brown colored wood being sold or used as Braz. The cheat is all way through the system. From millers, to sellers to builders. You pay a lot of money for a pretty piece of whatever that may be inferior soundwise to a cheap level Indian Rosewood.
Maybe the Brazz myth was true once, but I find it to be totally dead now. Besides its basically illegal to use.

madagascar and many other rosewoods like Cocobolo has the problem that the pieces are poorly cut with flatsawn figures in the middle of the two pieces. This is happening to a lot of non rosewood specias as well, like Malaysean Blackwood, Caviuna and others, where finding a well quatered piece is now very difficult.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2010 0:29:22

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

madagascar and many other rosewoods like Cocobolo has the problem that the pieces are poorly cut with flatsawn figures in the middle of the two pieces. This is happening to a lot of non rosewood specias as well, like Malaysean Blackwood, Caviuna and others, where finding a well quatered piece is now very difficult.

Exactly right Anders. One might as well just use E. Indian RW since it's about the only one you can still get that is cut correctly. Even the wide grain light colored plantation grown E. Indian is generally superior to the more expensive woods.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2010 10:43:31

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to jshelton5040)

speaking of rosewoods

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 8:12:21

HemeolaMan

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From: Chicago

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

see

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 8:13:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

see

Yeah, but you don't know how old that Braz. RW was. We bought it in the late 80's. Interesting that the price on this guitar is higher than a new one.

It's not a double back guitar but more correctly called a shell or double body guitar since there is essentially a shell built over the interior guitar. The double sides are held together by rosewood blocks and there is a space between the backs (they do not touch). As you can imagine, it's very difficult to build.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 9:51:25

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to jshelton5040)

no no no no, my point was just that i saw this guy at mid america guitar fest last weekend. nothing to do with the quality of rosewood. I just thought it was pertinent to post this pic =)

thought you might enjoy seeing that your guitars are still sought after!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 10:03:27

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
...I would be interested in the opinions of members of this forum... regarding the qualities inherent in the various rosewoods used in negras.

Judging the qualities of different rosewoods and the specific role they play in individual guitars is a bit like having a wine tasting discussion over the merits of different grapes. Too many different grape varieties out there, and even more winemakers. So many styles of wine.

Speaking personally, I can only estimate how each wood is going to change a guitar, and in which specific direction. It is not even the most objective guess, but one based on my intuition as a builder and limited experience with similar woods used before. I certainly attempt to build the best guitar I can, no matter which materials I work with.

Anders and John, I'm in agreement with your sentiment, well prepared wood goes a long way. How it is selected and resawn may be even more important than the type of wood used.

In the end, wood comes from trees, and they are organic, living creatures. Like people, they don't seem to appreciate being pigeon-holed :) So, I try to have an open-minded conversation with each one of them as I build :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 10:03:57

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

thought you might enjoy seeing that your guitars are still sought after!

Or said : thought you might enjoy seeing that your guitars are sought after!

He's not in retirement :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:05:08

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
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From: Chicago

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to estebanana)

as in retain their value and then some is what i meant.

undoubtedly they are sought after. but they are also still sought after. better than being sawed after, get it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:21:29

estebanana

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

The other differences in rosewoods and other dark woods which are not true rosewoods is density or weight. This is also different from tree to tree.....so as the other guys have said it's difficult to quantify characteristics in any other but the most general way.

I'll also agree, give me agood set of Indian and I'm happy. It's easy to work with by being forgiving under tools and bender and makes a perfectly fine guitar. What excites me right now are other woods which are not blonde or dark chocolatey. There are many species that are brown, tan, biege, honey colored etc. that have potential to make great guitars.

I've opened up to trying as many of the native woods from my area as possible too, because if you can find agricultural salvage logs of planks you can have control over how the raw material is resawn and dried. That goes back to the point that it's not so much the species, but how suitable the wood is for guitar making. And let's face facts, good dark woods are very sought after and will be more difficult and expensive to secure properly prepared for guitar making. As much as I want a stash of dark woods to grow in my shop I'm also looking for deals at local wood distributors for rough wood I can store and have resawn later. There will be a lot of good sounding guitars in the future made with little known woods.

There are many species that might make super nice flamencos even though they are not blonde or coco colored. Think of them as "Rosas", the next category of flamenco guitar on the rise.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:21:58

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

no no no no, my point was just that i saw this guy at mid america guitar fest last weekend. nothing to do with the quality of rosewood. I just thought it was pertinent to post this pic =)

Sorry if I sounded angry, I wasn't. Sometimes the written word is not the best method of communication. That must have been one of the last ones with Brazilian since that's about when our stock ran out. We still have a few backs but no sides.

I'm trying to remember who we built that guitar for, I guess I'll have to get out the records. At least it's not beat up. Did you perchance play it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:24:47

estebanana

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Smack him around John. Hemi is a wet behind the ears kid. He needs to be vetted in properly with much razzing and ceremony. :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:27:35

estebanana

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

I did not mean that Kevin, I'm just jealous of your hair.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:32:58

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

We still have a few backs but no sides.

I know a guy with sides, but no backs.

Wait did you just put your chocolate in his peanut butter?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:34:58

HemeolaMan

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From: Chicago

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to jshelton5040)

i did play it!

it was quite classical. in that sense i suppose it was fitting to find it at a classical guitar festival... needless to say, I like it far better than the others in the room costing 6k more. I attribute this to your skill above theirs because there were some heavy hitting names on some labels. so, be proud, you slew some giants! it was a dark sounding guitar with way more body (no pun intended, pun present though) than the others. I recall it being far more articulate and having an attack that was quicker than most, which i personally enjoy.

my obvious flamenco bias definitely played a factor though. i am really not a fan of guitars that have 3 mile high action and sound like mud as most classicals do.

I did see a man who made guitars out of oak. they sounded and smelled wonderful, i don't know why more people arent into oak.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 12:36:14

estebanana

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

it was a dark sounding guitar with way more body (no pun intended, pun present though) than the others.

Did you play your classical rendition of Foreigners song Double Vision?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 13:26:37

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

I like it far better than the others in the room costing 6k more. I attribute this to your skill above theirs because there were some heavy hitting names on some labels. so, be proud, you slew some giants! it was a dark sounding guitar with way more body (no pun intended, pun present though) than the others. I recall it being far more articulate and having an attack that was quicker than most, which i personally enjoy.

Why thank you HemeolaMan, it's always nice to receive a compliment on our guitars.

I'm pretty much with you regarding flamenco/classical action. It's really hard for me to set the classic action high enough for the normal player. I played classic guitar almost as long as I played flamenco but there was never any doubt in my mind whether I was a flamenco guitarist or classical. My personal classic always had action that was much too low for any normal classic player.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2010 14:31:56

BarkellWH

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From: Washington, DC

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders,

Many thanks for your reply. Nevertheless, I am not a luthier and don't know much about the subject. Regarding Madagascar rosewood, what do you mean by "poorly cut, with flat-sawn figures in the middle of the two pieces"?

I have a 2009 Vicente Carrillo flamenca negra 1a with Madagascar rosewood back and sides. It sounds great, and after reading your reply, I looked carefully at the back, both from the back and inside through the sound hole. I cannot see anything that appears wrong with it. How would I know if it was poorly cut or flat sawn?

Thanks for your thoughts on this subject.

Cheers,

Bill

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2010 20:56:48

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Well, you have to understand what quatersawn and flatsawn means and what it does to the stability of the wood.

You can also post a picture of your guitar.

Its easy to see the diference, flatsawn make a very typical figuring on the wood. Here in Spain, I have never seen a well cut piece of madagascar for sale. It has all been flatsawn. Mainly because there arent any big trees left on Madagascar. An enourmous part of the island has been cut down.
I agree with Estebanana that the best would be to learn to use local wood. The problem here is that there arent any wood you can use. We even have to import Cypress from Turquey or elsewhere.
In general, the whole thing about tropical woods is totally overrated. The myths about the qualities of many woods have been made and kept alive by woodsuppliers and builders in order to able to sell something a lot more expensive.
The same goes for quality rating of soundboards. All this Mastergrade, AAA etc is totally out of hand. Very few sellers know what the ratings mean or they dont care and rate the best piece of wood as a mastergrade even though it might not be more than a piece of AA grade wood.

Its pretty sad, because it means that we have to continue using woods which are clearly getting worse qualitywise. This because costumers are so fixed on that they can only live with a guitar made with this or that famous wood which they have read about on the internet.
I´m pretty sure you can make a top class flamenco guitar using Port Oxford Cedar and Myrtle, but can you sell it as well. In the end we, the guitarbuilders have to sell in order to survive.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2010 22:34:08

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Ramirez talked in all positives about Indian Rosewood in his books, but Brazilian he had many negatives. The main reason it seems everyone wanted Braz was for the look that's all. It seemed he liked it too, but it was difficult to work. He was quite happy making Indian RW guitars instead it seemed from his descriptions.

I have not noticed much difference in tone Braz vs Indian vs the Braz looking substitutes. I did play a Conde in a second hand shop made with Walnut that was simply amazing sounding. Only reason no one was buying was because the lable was from mid 80's hand signed by Felipe Conde (so it was an early instrument of the maker's son), it had some strange things in the detailing, and of course the walnut is just like plain brown, not attractive at all. But what a sound I say!

So how about maple guys? I am surprised after picking up my low end model Sanchis, that the top makers of flamencos have not turned to that pretty looking and sounding wood before. For me it really is in between the blanca sound and the negra sound. It had depth yet clearity required for flamenco IMO. I see now a days I guess it is catching on, but I wonder why never before?

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 5:46:14

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

We, the builders have to build what we can sell, and untill now, noone has asked me to build a maple guitar, but I stock maple and will build happily with maple if anyone is interested.

If not, I´ll build with it anyways, when i can find some time for it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 8:56:27

estebanana

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I did play a Conde in a second hand shop made with Walnut that was simply amazing sounding.

I would not doubt it. I think walnut is a sleeper for flamenco guitars. Steel string builders often over look it and even advise people to build the first guitar with walnut so they don't make mistakes on expensive wood. If you think about the density and the weight and how it sounds when you tap it, it's good flamenco wood. I've played a few walnut nylon string guitars which were quite beautiful. I have a set of flamed walnut I'm going to build with soon so I'll get a chance to put my theory to test.

Maple makes really nice guitars too, I've built two European flame maple flamencos. Santos used maple quite often and if players now don't see that it's good wood they are retarded for not knowing guitar making history. One thing I say about my experience playing maple guitars and building two is that I think maple gets out of the way of the sound. Maple seems to exert less influence over the tone than other woods. I mentioned that to Gene Clark not too long ago and he agreed it was a good estimation of Maple.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 9:59:07

at_leo_87

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to BarkellWH)

ricardo, is that guitar you have on your cd the maple one? it's super pretty.

if money wasn't an issue, my next guitar would definitely be maple.

i'm all for experimentation. i've seen some condes on gsi with koa and thought they looked pretty funky and cool.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2010 11:55:08

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

ricardo, is that guitar you have on your cd the maple one? it's super pretty.

if money wasn't an issue, my next guitar would definitely be maple.

i'm all for experimentation. i've seen some condes on gsi with koa and thought they looked pretty funky and cool.

The photo of the yellow guitar yes. I recorded with the Conde though, the orange one. Here you can hear the maple guitar sound:

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2010 6:49:33

at_leo_87

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The photo of the yellow guitar yes. I recorded with the Conde though, the orange one. Here you can hear the maple guitar sound:

nice playing and nice guitar!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2010 23:35:18

stratos13

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to at_leo_87)

[/quote]

nice playing and nice guitar!
[/quote]

Great playing and nice guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2010 0:53:01

krichards

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I've made a blanca with maple (English Sycamore) and it was a superb guitar. I'd love to use it as my standard blanca wood because it grows right outside my door.
But, as Anders says, clients just don't want it. They want blancas made of cypress and negras made of rosewood and that will only change if/when these woods become too scarce

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2010 23:32:56

gerundino63

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RE: Qualities Inherent in Different ... (in reply to Ricardo)

Very nice played Ricardo! It looks so easy if you do it.....

I have red, it was most common to use maple in Spain for flamenco guitars, until the very bad crisis in 1930, than they start use the more cheap ( in that time) Spanish cyprese.

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2010 4:39:19