Substituting 4 finger to 3 finger rasgeo

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sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

Substituting 4 finger to 3 finger rasgeo

Hi guys,

I'm pressing on with JM's level 0 and I've got to a few pieces that require a nice clean 4 finger rasgeo. I haven't got this technique nailed yet, it's still very weak sounding.

I'll carry on practising the 4 finger rasgeo but in the meantime I'd like to press on by substituting the 4 finger for a 3 finger with an added index upstroke. Only problem being is that my index finger is then in the up position and not the down so i'm loosing time.

Any suggestions?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 1:27:14

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to sean65)

Hi Sean,

Personally I don't think a 4 finger ras gives you any more speed than 3 finger ending in i up.
It just has a slightly different sound.

Personally (again) I like ending in i up as I think it puts your hand in a better position for starting other things rather than finishing with all fingers extended.

Sometimes I play 3 down i up, sometimes 4 down i up for a slightly "thicker" sound.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 4:06:10

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to sean65)

I think by 4 finger rasgueado you mean 'eami'

When I started learning Rasgueado, I didn't even know that there was such thing as a 3 finger one too! Anyway, I practiced on it and because I could do it fairly fast, I thought I was doing the technique very well; until I was asked to do it within the compas (i.e playing in the span of 2 beats). It took me a while to be able to do that.

The best way to master(!) the technique is to practice it as slow as possible; and using a metronome helps a lot.

With regards to your index finger, normally (but not always) both 4 and 3 finger rasgueados are followed by an upstroke of your index finger anyway ( eamii or amii), so I don't relly understand what is the problem?

However, like I said before, don't try to do it fast in the beginnig. Try to do it as slow as possible and you will see that it works. Flamenco requires patience and persever :)

Good luck

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 4:08:42

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to Ron.M)

Another "trick" I've found is to practise rasgueado techniques very lightly to begin with. Just brush your fingers across the strings and aim for accuracy and smoothness.
Playing hard will just tire you out and give you a headache.

Anyway to play louder, you just need to increase the overall hand pressure on the strings...not flicking out with more force. (although you will need some more force to overcome the increased resistance due to the extra pressure).

Also try putting a 2cm strip of foam under the strings at the bridge to reduce the noise and make the percussive feedback better.

If you can play lightly and smoothly then IMO you have it 75% cracked and it's not too much of a prob to increase the loudness.

Playing/practising loud and inaccurately sounds awful and is one of the best ways to lose friends and family and make enemies of neighbours.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 4:26:08

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to sean65)

Thanks guys, yes it was the eami type of rasgeo I meant.

Foam? I usually grab the nearest sock that happens to be lying around. And yes, it's because I don't want to drive everyone crazy while I'm practicing.

I'll try the lighter approach. That makes sense to me.

I think it'll be a good exercise in rhythm to rework the tune so that I can create the same punctuated effect with a slightly different technique.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 5:34:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to sean65)

Not sure the context of what you are learning, but becarefull when making subistitutions, because the entire point of a certain musical passage could be about developing the specific technique required. Once you have learned enough, you can make informed choices about why to one technique vs another, but if you simply can't achieve a technique, might be good at this early stage to work harder on it?

Ignoring whatever the rhythm might be you are trying to make, you can smooth out your eami rasgueado patterns by practicing rhythms that go counter to the number of strokes. For example....

eami, ieam, iiea, miie, amii, i..... the second i each time was up stroke, but notice the groups of 4, a clear rhythm you can practice. If you can't feel groups of 4 in the technique, you can try to accent the 1 beat each time. Also a small group of notes is enough to work on getting it even.

eami,ieam,i..........eami,ieam,i...... etc.

Same concept for 3 fingers....do triplets with the 4 stroke.

ami,iam,iia,mii, i......

or shorter grouping
ami,iam,i.....ami,iam,i....

Over time and with metronome you can smooth it out. You can do triplet rasgueados in groups of 4 as well to achieve the same idea about eveness:

paip,aipa,ipai,p.......paip, aipa, ipai, p......etc...

So I feel you need to not work on this stuff super slow, you need to set some kind of medium groove to feel, because momentum often changes how it feels to do the technique. Super slow sometimes is not letting you practice the proper mechanics of certain techniques.

In the case of a continuous 4 stroke 4 note rasgueado, eami,eami,eami, etc... the problem is usually occuring at the point of repeat. So reverse the rhythmic feel in order to smooth out the "seams" of repetition so to speak.

ieam, ieam, ieam, ieam,i etc
miea, miea, miea, miea, m....etc.

Hope that helps.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 6:11:32

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Hope that helps.

Are you joking?

That's like a master class. Thanks so much for typing all that out for me. Much appreciated Ricardo.

You're right about the piece being designed to introduce the techniques. What I'll do now is spend time away from the music and drill the technique for a while.

Man, that's a pretty thorough way of practicing rasgeo.

Not sure where to start! At the beginning I guess.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 7:21:53

Spencer

Posts: 34
Joined: Mar. 27 2008
From: Bargara Beach, Australia

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to sean65)

I too am also battling my way through this patch of flamencoquest.

I started with JM 4 finger rasgueado. Then picked up Graf-Martinez and he emphasizes 3 finger ras. Started to get that nailed down.

Then started lessons, and my teacher showed me that both are important, so need to master both - but with distinct, individual finger movements.

In re-learning 4 finger with improved individual finger movement, my 3 finger ras has fallen apart. Then Graf Martinez throws in the mixed ras {m - i (down) - i (up) - i (down) - i (up) - ma (down) - i (up)} and my brain has a seizure trying to figure out which finger to flick!!!

A query I have with rasgueados is the build up of tension in the fingers. I can flick each finger with no tension in the others, or I can "pretension" the other fingers to varying degrees. The question I have is should each finger remain relaxed until it reaches its turn in the queue, or should the hand preload with some tension?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2010 20:38:51

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Substituting 4 finger to 3 finge... (in reply to sean65)

Perhaps because this is a new technique my muscles aren't used to it, but yesterday I had a good go at the various suggestions and my right forearm felt like it was on fire.

I am making a conscious effort to check that I'm relaxing as I practice but even still!

A little but often I guess is the way to practice this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 8:34:46