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Hi, I felt that I am ready to try some big piece because lot of time i practice lot of falsetas, compas, technique etc. I am on the way of playing fandango Aires Chocqueros from PDL, now i can play it at very slow speed and I know there is another phase: to play it tempo or for me, just faster - lets say 130/140 bpm.
But i never practice such a complex composition before and I feel like am stuck! At this point can play some falsetas at tempo but if i try to play it all I allways fall in 1/3. Is there any advice for me?? Practicing with metronome always.. Play it again and again is very frustrating I am working on it lot of this three weeks... Anyway how long does it get to master piece like this?
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
I dont buy that 20 year and you'll get there crap at all, all that does is create more of a block.
If you're stuck right now at a tempo or a falsetta, the first thing to do is ask yourself what is keeping you from getting to the next level of the piece, is it an arpeggio- scale run or a chord shift, or is it merely the tempo. Stop and create your own exercises of the problem stops. Ask yourself what is the problem and once you figure that out then figure out how to resolve it.
When Im studying a piece(for me its classical guitar) I always start at 60bpm and learn one bar at a time, if I can play the bar 10x perfectly i move on to the the next bar etc. When the piece is totally under my fingers and engrained in my brain then I increase the tempo 1 or two notches at a time again If i can play it perfectly 10x i increase the tempo another notch til the desired tempo is met.
Paco is as brilliant as they come but he is only a man, there is nothing that he can play that you can't with dedication and time that is invested properly.
Good luck to you and don't think for one minute you cannot play Aires Chocqueros, in the next couple of months. Now creating such a work may take you 20 years, thats an entire different thing all together.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
I agree with both Ron and Rain. I think our third R, Ricardo, is just being funny, but he and others often say that it's better to forget about whole pieces and to focus instead on building up a repertoire of short ideas for each palo. I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth, but that's common advice on this forum and elsewhere, and I entirely agree with it. A beginning guitarist can be compared to a child learning to speak, and learning an advanced piece would be like that child memorizing a famous speech or a chapter of a novel. It's better to focus on basic spelling, vocabulary, grammar and syntax for the first few years and to spend your time expressing yourself. It's a lot more fun, too, because you have to figure out how to make one idea flow into or out of another. (More on this in the last paragraph.)
But every flamenco guitarist learns a few pieces at some point, usually Paco's. The problem is, even with the best tabs and using software to slow down the audio, you're probably going to try to do a few things the wrong way (=the hard way), and that can mean years of unneccesary frustration. Videos help to reduce the guesswork, but you're not going to find a video for every piece you want to learn, videos don't always show what both hands are doing, etc. So again, it's important to have a good idea of the basics before you take on an advanced piece.
In any case, it sounds like you're determined to learn Aires Choqueros. If you still can't play it full speed, the simple answer is that you have to keep practicing it. There's no other solution, and it's something we all have to deal with. I suggest you look very carefully at the parts that are giving you problems and, if everything seems reasonable, look at what you're doing immediately before each difficult part. I'm referring to the last sixteenth note or two before the problems start. Paco's pieces often have very good examples of ways to finish an idea in order to be in a good position to start the next idea, especially the way he uses open strings.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
thx for advices!
@Rain: yeah exactly its like playing classical music, where you need some diferent way of thinking - I like that idea with practicing only bars..
@Norman: shure i agree with yout that is bad idea to start playing flamenco with composition from PDL, but in my case think that it push me far, i take it like big practice.
quote:
Videos help to reduce the guesswork, but you're not going to find a video for every piece you want to learn
is great that we have youtube, it help me alot with correct position of fingers of left hand..
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to Rain)
quote:
all that does is create more of a block
That's interesting, Rain.
A while ago there was an article by an American Psychologist who said that everybody had the talent to make millions in business, or be famous in any of the Arts....the main thing holding them back were "blocks".
People who had made it just didn't have these blocks so their road was easy.
He then went on to say that these blocks could easily be removed by a course of Psychotherapy, enabling the person to achieve their highest goals.
So actually "talent" doesn't exist at all.
We can ALL do it.
Bugger paying all this money for Paco de Lucia concerts and CDs when he just had the luck not to have the same blocks as me or you....the money-grabbing ****.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to Ron.M)
Ron, can you define talent for me please?
I dont believe Paco or was born with the technical ability he has today, I'm sure he spent countless hours alone in a room practiceing. He spent 12hrs a day for one month practicing Concerto de Aranjuez as he stated in a documentary that I'm sure you watched.
For example, If I believed in my mind that I could not develop a picado as good as Paco's I would not practice the technic, I probably would not attempt to. What allows me to practice and keeps me practicing is that I know I can because my progress tells me so. What was difficult once is easier today. Its my love for the instrument that has developed my TALENT. When I was a kid I believed Bach's Chaconne was impossible to play but today there is not one piece that I can' t play.
Talent is something that is developed thru passion and perseverance and by overcoming the obstacles that is presented to us. And in your case if that takes Psychotherapy, thats great, it may save you 20 years when it comes to learning Aires Chocqueros.
We can ALL do it
Perhaps you believe you can't and maybe thats true, but yes we can all do it, that is those who want to enough. Can we all be as creative as Paco and create the sounds that have made him so appealing to concert goers and record buyers, maybe not, but we definatly can develop the technical skills to be able to play his music.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
Have my own opinion of "talent" in music, technique I take like pure sport, everybody with "stamina" can learn it... But technique isnot most important thing in music, only is nice to be close to level that have flamenco now
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
quote:
A while ago there was an article by an American Psychologist who said that everybody had the talent to make millions in business, or be famous in any of the Arts....the main thing holding them back were "blocks".
As much as I believe that the absence of these blocks is a big part of the creative process, one must remember one important fact.......... the great majority of Psychologists are a bunch of dufuses.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
AAh but you mistake talent for technique.
Talent is the ability of the player that only surfaces after he has mastered his technique.
No, Paco wouldn't have the technique he has without a lot of practice, but the important thing is that after he has mastered the technique an unique style emerged. That is talent.
Look at Javier Conde for example; he plays some of PDL's songs with brilliant technique but he lacks the soul Paco has. He doesn't care about music, all he cared about was to match the technique of Paco De Lucia.
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RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
talent is the ability to learn something with little or no effort, relative to others, a "natural" ability.
Learning to play something specific same as Paco could take an afternoon, or a lifetime. It depends on the individual's level and abilities. No one should kid themselves into thinking: "well if I do X amount of work, there is no doubt that I will achieve the same level of ability"...even with technique, but especially with PDL's technique. If you are not a natural, then there is an actual chance it will take 20 years to forever to get certain things. If you ARE a natural, well you probably don't need to ask these questions, you just go for it. I admit there are somethings of Paco I can do well, and others I am not so sure I will ever get it the same speed and ease.
Good news is, to do such a thing is NOT a requirement to be a good or great flamenco player.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
If you are not a natural, then there is an actual chance it will take 20 years to forever to get certain things. If you ARE a natural, well you probably don't need to ask these questions, you just go for it.
Ha-ha, "return to forever," that's what I think every time I have to practice picado!
Well of course you're right about that Ricardo, but I think you're describing extreme scenarios: not only naturals and non-naturals but also Paco's more difficult falsetas. Most aficionados and pros fall between the extremes of natural and non-natural, and only some of Paco's falsetas are superhuman. Sabicas said that you can play anything, all you have to do is practice it for an hour every day for a year. I think he was right about that, provided that the guitarist has some minimum requirements and is doing everything correctly from the beginning. For example, sometimes I discover a tiny detail that ends up meaning a lot, like barreing across all six strings instead of four or five of them, because of how that sets me up for the next idea. Unfortunately, what usually happens is that we become aware of those details after the fact, unless there's a teacher or someone to point them out. I think that if all the details are right from the beginning, after a year or so of focusing on a single idea, most guitarists should be able to play that idea, even if it's Paco's.
Rather than the technical implications, I think the barriers for most guitarists are (1) the aforementioned and (2) getting sick of repeating something a thousand times (or maybe threats of violence from the girlfriend after SHE'S heard it the first 100 times).
Maybe in another thread we can talk about falsetas that are still giving us problems after years of practice. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
OK...here's the real thing...
You said it Ron!
Music is the vehicle. The real thing has the substance and the form. My brain may be interested in the form but without the substance my heart couldn't care less.
One thing that doesn't get mentioned much is the whole universe that exsists around each beat. One can play in time but there is a subtle world where individuals all play differently i.e. behind, on, ahead of the beat in immeasurable different shades- this gives so much expression. IMO the beatles are playing completely differently to the other guys.
Timing is just one difference of expression.
I still think someone can play a PDL piece and give it substance just that it will be their's and not Paco's. If they've got some soul and musical expression then my heart may respond if not I may just think "how can I get my picado faster?"
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
I'm always amazed by the whole "Talent" does it or doesn't it exist conversation.
It's like the guy living in a palacial 20 room house that says, "I'm not rich."
The only people who I have ever met who have denied the existance of talent are those who clearly have it. And they all claim they got to where they are by hard work.
If only they knew how hard those of us that DON'T have it have worked.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
Sabicas said that you can play anything, all you have to do is practice it for an hour every day for a year. I think he was right about that, provided that the guitarist has some minimum requirements and is doing everything correctly from the beginning.
But after all, he did not have a teacher, and did things his own way, yet still achieved a "natural" speed sound and ability. His advice is from his point of view as a child prodigy.
We each can only give our own perspective on this. So here is me, a couple years ago playing Paco de Lucia note for note:
I have to say that I learned the bulk of this in a few days, yet 3 of the falsetas I have been working on for years. This video was in response to the first "foro challenge", deadline was supposed for December, and I uploaded right away in January. So after years of working on the whole piece how have I come along with it???
The 3 falsetas I rush and mess up the most, were the same ones I have been working on for years. I could possibly right now play it all with less rushing problems, but also a little less speed and accuracy over all, having not worked on this lately. So my point is, pretty much that first week was were the piece and my level is at, and has not gotten orders of magnitude better by now. Little fine details can get smoother, but it takes time. And the better it gets, the longer it seems to take to notice. If I played this now, no one would notice the improvements I would say.
But none of that has much to do with how I feel as a flamenco player at this time vs couple of years ago. For sure, I have learned many things and feel more advanced overall....but when it comes to simply interpreting PDL music note for note, as this thread is about, I have to say we are all limited as to what we can achieve. Sure there might be some that say "well you did it, that was good enough..." but I know better then to accept that, because I am full aware of my short comings vs Paco's version. There are a couple fasletas in this piece that "suite me" and if all I did was stick with those, and did them perfect, then I am the better player for it. Working on the entire piece was fun and educational, but I dont' feel it is "ready".
Like jason pointed out in the advanced challenge to my playing, the middle fasletas revealed I did not "like it" in my interpretation. That alone is preventing me from mastering it, and that is my point about learning flamenco "pieces". It is not required to do the whole thing, and you may be trying to achieve light speed (never getting there because the closer you get, the harder it becomes) by pursuing that route, and in the long run, wasting precious learning time for material that actually DOES suite your personal playing style.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to Ricardo)
I thought you were going to show us something you can't play too well...
quote:
His advice is from his point of view as a child prodigy.
He certainly was an "extraterrestre" like they also say about Paco. Sometimes though I think one of his greatest abilities was to find the right way to do things, because his playing looks so efficient.
I'll bet that the progress you've made in those difficult falsetas has more to do with finding more logical alternatives than it does with developing stronger muscles.
There are two of Paco's ideas that I still can't play well after years of trying (obviously there are many more, but these two come to mind): One is in "Reflejo de la luna," in the second half, there's a quiet passage that starts with a strummed E minor chord. Just before the passage repeats, there are some crazy arpeggios that go to F sharp seventh, then to an embellished G minor chord, to A minor seventh and to the tonic. That G minor is spread out over frets one, three and five, and I still can't get that. Little easier with the cejilla, but it's still a handful for me. I just had another listen and I think that's the way it's played. The other one that's still killing me is in the first part of La tumbona, after the alzapúa comes boiling up from F, he caps off the falseta with some ferocious p-i-p triplets that are still just out of my reach tempo-wise after about five years of effort. I think I nailed it once in 2007...
quote:
...wasting precious learning time for material that actually DOES suite your personal playing style.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to michall)
It would be so much easier if everybody agreed on never doing picado! Then you dont have to learn it. Lets exclude picado from flamenco and you have alot more spare time. What do you think?
Last complicated thing i learned was a buleria falseta one year ago. Spent one month on the falseta, and one month only on the picado. No, I did NOT get the falseta up speed, max 80%, but what really frustrating is that if i had to play it, i would have to start at 50% and re-learn lots of it.
Funny thing is, there are falsetas that took me just one afternoon to learn, but they are not necessarily inferior to other falsetas. I like such falsetas.
I would agree with Ricardo, even if you do everything necessary to learn a falseta, there is no guarantee you will do it, because the guy that played it, might have more talent in that matter. Even if talent in that context only means some physical/genetical conditions that we cannot change (different techniques suit differently well on people). The reason why we are learning things at all is because of our brain is adaptable. But we cant change some natural aspects that are given to our body by birth and some of them cant be changed that much, or not as much as other people are capable of.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
Rather than the technical implications, I think the barriers for most guitarists are (1) the aforementioned and (2) getting sick of repeating something a thousand times (or maybe threats of violence from the girlfriend after SHE'S heard it the first 100 times).
Maybe in another thread we can talk about falsetas that are still giving us problems after years of practice. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
Yes and yes. Perhaps that is the deciding factor, and the answer for why this one can and the other cant, one continues to practice the picado say the run in La Barrossa a million boring times and the other does not. One has the will to overcome the obsticle the other gives up.
I would love to see a list of these impossible falsettas. Perhaps that could lead to our next challenge, to see how many here can play them. What a learning experience that would be for all.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to Ron.M)
Ron, I really don't understand your negative attitude. If it is you who cannot achieve or meet his goals, I wish you would stop telling others that they cant.
Tell all those actors who have not received an Oscar how untalented they are.
Tell Ricardo and Jason to stop composing and playing because they will never enjoy the success that Paco or Vicente has.
RE: Practice whole piece from PDL (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo:
quote:
Learning to play something specific same as Paco could take an afternoon, or a lifetime. [....] If you ARE a natural, well you probably don't need to ask these questions, you just go for it. I admit there are somethings of Paco I can do well, and others I am not so sure I will ever get it the same speed and ease.
Good news is, to do such a thing is NOT a requirement to be a good or great flamenco player.
quote:
It is not required to do the whole thing, and you may be trying to achieve light speed (never getting there because the closer you get, the harder it becomes) by pursuing that route, and in the long run, wasting precious learning time for material that actually DOES suite your personal playing style.
Deniz:
quote:
Funny thing is, there are falsetas that took me just one afternoon to learn, but they are not necessarily inferior to other falsetas. I like such falsetas. I would agree with Ricardo, even if you do everything necessary to learn a falseta, there is no guarantee you will do it, because the guy that played it, might have more talent in that matter. [...] But we cant change some natural aspects that are given to our body by birth and some of them cant be changed that much, or not as much as other people are capable of.
Many years ago I heard an interview with the great pianist Vladimir Horowitz, who was renowned for his monstrous technique. When asked about the secret of that technique, all he said was: "Technique is...knowing your limitations."
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At this point can play some falsetas at tempo but if i try to play it all I allways fall in 1/3. 
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