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orsonw

Posts: 1937
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

Minimising finger movement 
I have been working hard on minimising finger movement lately. I see how minimal movement is very important. Check out Rafael Cortes picado at 0.26 and 1.26 looks like his fingers hardly move.



Does anyone have any advice for picado, arpeggio or any technique as far as developing minimal movement? This is what I have been doing-

1. practicing very staccatto.

2. In arpeggios pre-planting so the next finger is planted before the previous one even plays.

3. practicing arpeggios keeping all fingers down on their string except when they're playing then straight back down.

4. I have been noticing having a flat wrist helps with a shorter finger stroke.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2010 11:05:09
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Minimising finger movement (in reply to orsonw) 
I cant give you any advice since my picado sucks big time, but i can say that Rafael has very fat fingers, i mean, he has naturally very little movement because his finger touches the adjacent string very early after the stroke. There is another video of him where you can appreciate the movement better.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2010 11:55:06
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Minimising finger movement (in reply to orsonw) 
Hi Orson,

For minimizing picado, I've found that it helps to focus on the moments when you move to a new string, because you don't want to lift your finger when moving to a lower-pitched string. Here are some exercises for that:

http://www.canteytoque.es/pmiexc.htm#picado

For picado and for everything else, I always try to keep a finger in contact with the strings, usually the thumb. In general, I try to keep my right-hand fingers curled up loosely and tucked into the first three strings.

It looks like Rafael has short fingers in relation to his hands. A lot of guitarists with hands like that seem to play effortlessly. Maybe shorter fingers make it a more efficient mechanism.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2010 13:43:34
 
larrygraham

 

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 29 2005
 

RE: Minimising finger movement (in reply to orsonw) 
There is a good book title "The guitarist's hands" by John W. Duarte and Luis Zea which shows all sorts of challenging exercises for minimizing movements of both left and right hands. It is out of print now, try to find a copy in the library.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2010 15:37:54
 
hobersmith

 

Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 21 2010
 

RE: Minimising finger movement (in reply to orsonw) 
There are many things you can do to improve in that area, especially the picado.

The best possible example of perfect picado is without doubt Paco de Lucia. There are many videos with very nice close-ups of his picado.

Some basic advice sounds like this: straighten the pinky as far as you can, flex the ring finger as much as you can, turn your hand so that the pinky almost touches the strings and press your thumb on the bass note as hard as possible. Then play picado :D

Try this exercise with some pattern you already know (like Entre Dos Aguas). Remember, the more uncomfortable the position is for you, the better.

You can find more detailed information about different techniques on my site.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2010 10:00:59
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Minimising finger movement (in reply to orsonw) 
I don’t really have any actual advice to offer on the matter, just a couple obvious type observations.

A while back I prematurely hit a wall with arpeggios and it was pointed out to me that there was some exaggerated range of motion in my technique. In the interest of getting a full, strong sound I was kind of yanking each finger up into my palm with each stroke. I slowed way down and retrained that technique, focusing on a short stroke and stop with each finger. I was bummed about having to step back and start over, but it actually didn’t take long to get accustomed to this new and improved approach. So, your fix might be as simple and unglamorous as just slowing down for a while and concentrating on doing all these techniques with minimal movement.

Another thing I tinkered around with was the angle at which I plucked the string. At either extreme you can pluck out, away from the guitar, or you can pluck up, parallel to the strings. I had never really put much thought into finding the best and most efficient balance between those two extremes and had always done “whatever”. Fiddling around with that angle and trying to find the best mix of power/tone and minimal muscular effort was instructive and another step toward getting my technique cleaned up.

I don’t know how you feel about visualization type stuff but I have one thing I like to do in this area. When you see video of a lot of the top guys playing arpeggio you tend to see an unmoving hand, poised calmly over the strings while the fingers go wheedly wheedly like a centipede’s legs. Barely any movement, but full, rich sound and sharp, precise strokes. When I practice arpeggio I try to keep that image in mind…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2010 14:26:07
 
Spencer

Posts: 34
Joined: Mar. 27 2008
From: Bargara Beach, Australia

RE: Minimising finger movement (in reply to orsonw) 
I find this an interesting technical thread. I started guitar with classical lessons, and economy of movement was always being highlighted.

To srsshea: Your thoughts seem to be the best solution to all technical hurdles. Slow right down, focus on the mechanics, retrain muscle memory and gradually rebuild speed.

To larrrygraham: Interesting sounding book. Not often you can't get a book through Amazon, but that seems to be the case this time round.

I would love to hear more views in response to this thread.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2010 18:03:12
 
orsonw

Posts: 1937
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Minimising finger movement (in reply to orsonw) 
@ Norman Thanks- very helpful. In picado descending with M particular is a weak point. Just having that focus has made a big improvement. A phrase lasting a compas and ending on bass strings should end with power not fade away!

@srshea . I hit that arpeggio wall too. Yes, slow unglamorous focused practice helps me too. Though I am glad to see it paying off when in the middle of the glamour of performance!
The way motor learning works means a pattern learnt slow will carry over when playing fast. Only playing slow gives us the ability to really focus on detail.

I use this analogy- if you write your signature very small on a pin head or huge on a wall with a paint brush it is very similar even though totally different muscles are used. Obviously the same muscles are used to play guitar slow or fast but I am just amazed at our ability to learn motor and movement patterns.


In both picado and arpeggio I have found pushing down into the soundboard helps me. Thinking of releasing the string rather than plucking it out. A hold and release rather than a swing of my finger and then a hit. I get a fuller thicker tone as well as speed this way.

Visualisation also helps me alot. I have been using the granaina of Amir Haddad the last few months for inspiration.

I find that technique is liking chipping away at a block of stone, over the years it gets more in focus. We all have to find our own way but knowing which aspects to consider, which questions to ask is a good starting place. I find much technique advice is vague. I find it helpful to be as mechanically detailed as you suggest. I am wondering if a beginner given the right direction from the start could get directly to good technique? Or perhaps this slow bringing into focus is the only way?

I started this thread in the hope of saving me and others too many more years of chipping away!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 23 2010 7:42:29
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