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Ive noticed there are basically 2 general wrist/hand positions for picado.
The "Paco'esque" style where the wrist is fairly straight, and the fingers are more bent. The forearm moves as fingers move towards basses.
Or like Grisha, or Jason, where the wrist is flexed, and fingers are straighter, with wrist flexing increasingly as fingers move towards the basses.
Please explain the reasons behind your preferance.
I find that i look at my hand, and i want it to look straighter (watched too many Paco vids), but i naturally end up flexing my hand downward. Im working on getting somewhere in between. I have a problem with having my index running into my thumb. No doubt this comes from holding a pick for 30 years straight. Im just recently starting to get a "relaxed" feeling when doing picado, yet still somehow retaining punch and power, which is something that Grisha explained here rather well some years ago. 3 things of note have helped me. Changing up the scale sequences, (not just playing straight up and down scales), Speed Bursts with varying note groupings, and starting a picado practice session out with playing lines softly, going for consistancy, and relaxing, then gradually increasing volume, while maintaining relaxation in between strokes. (going for ballistic motion and avoiding "exchanging" fingers)
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
I find myself in exaclty the same situation. I just wathced the Gerardo Nunez instructional vid and realized, it doesn't really matter. He says something like, "I wouldn't presume to tell you how to hold your right hand." Wow. I figured there must be a wrong way and a right way.
I think he is on to something. I have these objectives which are my only criteria for hand position. 1. Total relaxation to ensure there is no stress whcih will slow me down. 2. Minimal or economy of movement. 3. Correct technique such as rest stops, tremelo etc.
There are way too many variables for there to be just 1 correct. Body size, height, lengh of arms etc. will determine the positioning of the guitar and that in turn leads to what is and what is not comfortable.
I think the only universal "Correct" is that the hand and arm from knuckles to elbow should create a straight line. (this according to the book "Pumping Nylon"
I seem to be good on arpeggios and picado when they are separate entities, but when you mix them together my technique goes out the window.
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to Stoney)
quote:
Gerardo Nunez instructional vid and realized, it doesn't really matter. He says something like, "I wouldn't presume to tell you how to hold your right hand." Wow. I figured there must be a wrong way and a right way.
Interesting - I was taught there was very definitely a right way, which is what Todd calls the Paco-esque way. That's probably the main reason why I use that, but also because I feel I have more control with a straight wrist.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
I originally learned classical guitar, so thats the position I use. Its uncomfortable to me to use the traditional flamenco position. Heres some example pics for comparison:
Pepe Romero is playing a Sabicas piece in this picture. This is the hand position I use for picado.
Ive never thought they were similar, but PdL and Nuñez's positions look alike in these pics.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Posts: 15268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
flat bent fingers, mainly cuz it makes switching between arps and melody smoother. Speed is often the idea of students trying to copy the flat wrist (paco is fast so, I must do it his way!), but not related directly to this position. There are equally fast players from both camps. But there is a comfy fluid feeling in the hand when you develop this flat wrist/bent fingers.
About nuñez, he is the ONLY player I have seen that can demo BOTH ways. I find most guys get one way and that is it, it becomes natural. Obvious he was aware of the difference and tried both ways. As he states, doing what ever feels most natural is the "correct" thing to do...in the end you simply must achieve fluidity, rhythm control, and flamenco tone. If you are NOT getting one of these, I personal feel it would be good to explore the "other way" what ever it is. But if all is well, don't change.
About pumping nylon, the straight line concept of elbow, wrist and hand, changes things alot interms of sound. Flamenco players almost always angle the wrist sideways (regardless if wrist if flat or arched) so the fingers play more face on to the strings. This in turns affects nail shape.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
Moderately straight wrist/fingers bent . To me, it just simply feels more natural. I find that i can get the right amount of volume and tone necessary playing this way. I guess the best thing is what Gerardo Nunez says which is whatever feels the most natural for you.
Posts: 15268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to Chiste de Gales)
quote:
Weird- to me that adds unnecessary hand tension, but I can't really criticize a player as good as Vicente.
This issue came up many years ago at FT. As you point out, "tension" in the pinky is unnecessary, but several players doing something weird with the pinky end up with tons of speed and control anyway. I feel like it is not a main contributing factor to speed.
When I first started playing with fingers, I used to tuck my fingers up into my palm when doing picado (see Riqueni and some others, Sabicas maybe???), after seeing vids of Paco and Tomatito, I made conscience effort to keep the pinky and ring OUT, and the result is my pinky does the same deal as vicente here, and Tomatito, etc. It definantly made my hand feel better then it DID, but not sure if it slowed me down. The tension I personally feel is kind of natural, I never really noticed it or felt pain or tired when doing lots of picado. It is not so tense that it is like a tight fist, one could easily push it down while I was playing. But who knows? If it try to let the pinky down on purpose, my hand feels REALLY strange and not in control as normal.
Anyway, other fast players do weird things with the pinky. When doing arps Nuñez and Tomatito EXTEND the pinky then curl it, it looks really weird. Paco de lucia sticks his pinky out sideways for picado, which again if I try that my had feels MORE tense then when I curl it up.
Manolo sanlucar has a super relaxed hand, no weird pinky moves or anything, yet he is not exactly the picado monster that some of the others above are.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
i think Grisha and as Ricardo mentioned, Manolo Sanlucar are great models for picado because their middle, anular, and pinky fingers all move together. Anatomically, this is "Proper".
Though i hear what Ricard is saying, and i get it. When i first started doing picado, i conciously had to practice moving those 3 fingers together. It takes time. My pinky still creeps away if im not thinking about it. For me, i think it will serve me best if i can get middle, anular, and pinky moving together. Ive noticed just about all great fingerstyle bass players all have those three fingers moving together. TK
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
quote:
Playing fast picado is like rolling your tongue lengthwise. Either you can do it or you can't. I can't.
Practice won't get you far.
Well, YOU wont get far, cause thats what you've convinced yourself of.
If you dont believe in it, it will never happen.
I believe in it, therefore i will have it. Ive gotten to 16ths at 160bpm in one year. I will reach 200bpm in another 2 years max. Check back here in a couple of years, and you will witness the power of belief.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
Some years ago I was able to play the 1compas picadoruns of Pepe Habichuelas alegrias at tempo of 160bpm without to much problems.. But after playing much picado my nails always got too much damage. They were damaged by picado at the left side of the nail continously that I had to file down my nails to the flesh, slowly day by day... So I decided to stop with 2 finger picado and switched to 3 fingers.. And since I dont practice 2 finger picado anymore, my i and m finger cramps somehow and wont move when I play longer scales.
I decided to try a prove of principle. As Miguel Angel Cortes said more or less in an interview. "Everybody can learn picado...its only a matter how and how much you practice. With hard work you get picado. Thats no magic." So.. I´ll set up a practicing routine. Because I didn't practice picado for a long time. I set my goal to 160bpm 4 notes one beat (The two scales from the alegrias of Pepe again!). And I try to archive that till the end of april. Lets see how far I can get. Well,.. but if my nails get too much damage..Ill pause that challenge because I need em. Gonna be interesting, at least for me.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
I believe in it, therefore i will have it. Ive gotten to 16ths at 160bpm in one year. I will reach 200bpm in another 2 years max. Check back here in a couple of years, and you will witness the power of belief.
Then you can roll your tongue.
Did Canizares believe and practice more then Manolo Sanlucar? Did Pepe Habichuela never believe and practice at all? Tomatito? Manolo Franco? ...
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
Ive gotten to 16ths at 160bpm in one year. I will reach 200bpm in another 2 years max. Check back here in a couple of years, and you will witness the power of belief.
Todd, that really is an incredible achievement in one year. I'd really appreciate any advice or tips that you may have. I'd be especially be interested in knowing more about your practice routine and HOW you practice - e.g. the kind of exercises you perform, duration, etc.
I certainly believe that one's outlook affects playing ability. You have to be OPEN to the possibility of improvement and your own potential. There's a risk of looking at fast picado as a superhuman achievement. If that's what you tell yourself, then you'll be right...It's like Henry Ford said: "wether you tell yourself that you will succeed or fail, you'll be right."
I've always found that looking at picado as a PERCUSSIVE technique has helped my practice.
Anyway, Todd, anything you can share about how you've achieved such improvement so quickly would be gratefully received!
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
quote:
Did Canizares believe and practice more then Manolo Sanlucar? Did Pepe Habichuela never believe and practice at all? Tomatito? Manolo Franco? ...
No idea, and i dont really care. All i know is, i know for sure that if i believe deeply that i can do something, i can do it. I have a clear vision of myself doing it in my head. Sheerly a matter of time and persistance until it becomes manifest reality.
No offense to you btw. If you choose to limit yourself, thats fine with me. To each his own. TK
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
i used to use straight fingers but it's starting to slowly change to bent fingers. it was never a conscience decision, i just noticed it now because of this thread. i have a theory that it's sometimes best to let the body adapt to something naturally.
quote:
Sheerly a matter of time and persistance until it becomes manifest reality.
awesome! this is a perfect example of a practical and effective mindset.
quote:
Anyone else with a worse picado wanna join?
i'm in. i can do bursts of 16ths at 150. but i'm starting to plateau. so what do we do exactly?
Posts: 15268
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
Ive gotten to 16ths at 160bpm in one year. I will reach 200bpm in another 2 years max. Check back here in a couple of years,
Cool. Do you mean long lines? Like say G on the first string down to open E the 6th? I bet, sorry to sound pessimistic, in 2 years you will bottom out around 175 bpm. My guess is you can do some speedy bursts around 200 now though if you are warm. Well, we shall wait and see I guess!
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
Picado with flexed wrist w/ fingers straighter for me.
You can get much more the "bite" feeling with this one IMO. And i can do burst at 400bpm! Well maybe in 2 years But i can go pretty fast with this technic, while the other doesn't work at all for me...
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
Hi Todd. Glad you are still enjoying the change in technique.
I like an arch for a classical sound and more flat (and playing off of the side of the thumb ) for flamenco. The flat wrist doesn't give me the classical sound I want particularly when I want the harmony to 'grow' through a phrase. But for flamenco the evenness and dryness are sometimes more in style. I notice that even in classical I sometimes flatten the wrist in pure scale passages for more bite, not sure yet if this is too rough for bach and stuff.
As to excercise I love paradiddles for two finger work. ie ebee bebb (strings one and two). I like to do this with fingering iiii iiii (thats all one finger on the e and be strings) and try and get an evenness of sound imii mimm playing one bar of each in alternation. All the notes on the b sting are free stokes all the e's heavy heavy rest. It wont take long to figure out why this is useful if you are curious and give it a try.
How is your tremolo going by the way ? I've been working loads on mine and having a blast, there is so much you can do with it.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
I can do picado in different styles. im, ia and ma each with bent and straight fingers. My preferred style changes all the time and I suck in all of them equally.
I'm using ia with straight fingers now and before that it was ma with bent fingers.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
i know for sure that if i believe deeply that i can do something, i can do it.
Thats right. The mind is a powerfull tool. Check out shaolin monks and what they do with the help of their strong mind and concentration. Mental training works well for guitar. You can practice your falsetas when youre lying in your bed in the evening.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
Thats right. The mind is a powerfull tool. Check out shaolin monks and what they do with the help of their strong mind and concentration. Mental training works well for guitar. You can practice your falsetas when youre lying in your bed in the evening.
Rofl! But that is a wonder, the shaoling part i mean. Do they concentrate while taking a dump aswell?
It's like people believing you can learn a language, say japanese, if you keep your earphones with lessons on while sleeping... Wish that was true, ne doitsujin kun!
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
lol.. dont exaggerate the idea of mental training. Or you maybe misunderstood it. If you concentrate on flying,..you wont be able to fly.... It works for other things but you wont see any effect if you try it for 5mins one time.. its a continuos thing. And as Todd wrote...if you come along with "that wont work"..than forget this technique.
(Oh man...Im sounding like someone who believes in adam and eva or in ideas of strange sect... )
Lets say..if you go through new falsetas in your mind. You will get them in your finger-memory much faster. Its my personal experience...or at least my personal religion..
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
So, along came Grisha and broke the voting balance... in favor of the "forbidden style" You already knew that anyway...
My way is very comfortable for me. I can play scales without feeling too much strain on my muscles. In the 90-s, when I got my hands on Paco's videos for the first time, I tried to mimic him, and all went just fine... until one day I woke up and couldn't play. My middle and ring fingers felt drunk, heavy and didn't want to move at all. I had no control. Had a few embarrassing concerts as a result. It lasted for well over a year, and even now, more than 15 years after, I still feel that injury. I spoke to another guy in Spain who had the same thing, and another person here in USA.
Be careful!!!
On the other hand, I do feel more control when I raise my wrist slightly more than I am used to. The sound definitely becomes more flamenco when I do that. However, I want to retain my classical sound just in case...
Make sure that you exercise not just index and middle, but also ring and index fingers. Middle and ring are optional. Try playing 3-finger scales as well.
A great way of building muscles (because speed is impossible without muscle strength) and practicing stability is playing normal scales with three notes per pitch (triplets). Somehow that exercises your mind, and you stop worrying about each note (as you play every note three times), while still subconsciously controlling your every stroke. This way is also easy on the left hand.
RE: Do you use a flexed or flat wris... (in reply to ToddK)
Thank you very much for the input on picado. I´ll include that into my practice. I also made the experience that my picado becomes slower (less control) when I use protection on the nails coz of heavy strumming for dance... Thats bad..I need to protect because otherwise my nails break for sure,..and its bad for control. :.//
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Im just recently starting to get a "relaxed" feeling when doing picado, 
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