Developing dynamics - Loud Vs Quiet

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flybynight

Posts: 121
Joined: Aug. 14 2009

Developing dynamics - Loud Vs Quiet

Something that has always struck me as important in appreciating flamenco, almost *as* important as compas, is the dynamics of the guitar playing.

By this I mean the deliberate use of sound Vs emptyness within a compas phrase, and between phrases, to really bring out the aire of a piece.

I've tried below to set out as much as I can think of around it - as a non-expert, to provoke discussion, but it's open-season really.

First physical and technical,which are perhaps pre-requisites to the second - emotional and musical aspects.

Physical Aspects

Physically speaking, I would guess this means
- strong fingers, hands, and all muscles that guide them, and having all these very relaxed when playing.
- lots of practice playing exercises and real pieces.
- 'square' cut nails - not rounded, to really give bit (arguably..). And also a thumbnail well filed to do both hard (click off the string), and more fleshy - softer contact.

Technical Aspects

I would guess this means actively (consciously) practicing the use of dynamics alongside other technical exercises:

- Rasguedo - using the more powerful 'flicking out from the thumb' Vs the less aggressive 'fingers from the palm' technique. Practise going from Quiet > Loud > Quiet
- Tresillo - PAI (seems quiter) Vs P (A or M) P (seems to be used to punctuate phrases). Practice going from Quiet > Loud > Quiet on both.
- Tremolo -
a) introducing a gap: P(gap here)IAMI, while still staying in compas with the P as the anchor. Eg. Practice playing the thumb loud, and the fingers quiet, then vice versa.
b) Thumb playing rest stroke to increase the dynamics Vs free stroke, which is quieter. Practise going from Quiet > Loud > Quiet
- Picado - really 'pushing in' the string to build up the tension before releasing it Vs just making enough contact. Or should Picado always be loud ?
- Use of dampening techniques (pinkie on left hand, fleshy part on right hand to REALLY make the transition between Loud-> Quiet. Moraito is a master at this.

For practicing dynamics generally,
- Should we develop dynamics as crazily as we do compas, or leave dynamics until compas has been nailed ?
- What specific techniques to practice, like I have suggested above ?
- Should we practice 'over the top' dynamics - really quiet and loud, just to force our fingers and brains to make the necessary stretch ?

Emotional and Musical aspects

I would guess this means a profound and long period of listening and witnessing toque, baile and cante, to understand how to interleave the physical/technical dynamics above, into what would otherwise be a very 'flat' piece of music, with little emotional connection.

But it seems (shoot me down..) that old school - sabicas, montoya, pena use very few dynamics in comparison to newer school - always trying to project the music at the cost of subtlety. Is this just because to accompany baile / cante , it needed to be loud, it wasn't a solo instrument really, and so the aesthetics of dynamics weren't really important, or were, the recording tools available, or even the guitars not up to it, and nobody would have appreciated it if they did more dynamic playing ?

Within different Palos, is there the idea of dynamics of playing - ie 'call' and 'answer' eg, Again, I love the way Moraito, on Morao Morao, on the last Siguirillas seems to do this.. really separating out the 3/4 from the 6/8 part sof the phrase, sometimes one part quiet, sometimes the other.

When accompanying Cante, presumably dynamics are very important to embody that individual performance, the mood of the singer etc. Presumably more important than accompanying Baile?. The first time I saw my guitar teacher accompany baile, I couldn't believe how little dynamics he used, how much he thrashed the guitar, and how knackered he was at the end. But he really did have the gentle touch for solo work. For solo playing, aside from compas, dynamics seem (to me) to separate out the good from poor players, from an appreciation perspective.

Summary

I'd like everybody's thoughts on:

a) how to achieve dynamics as a flamenco guitar player, how to effectively practice them, and when to start introducing this element as a learner.

b) how important dynamics are, and how they vary between solo playing, accompanying baile, and accompanying cante. When should we use them to best effect, and when to avoid them.

c) when to apply dynamics to their best effect, between phrases within a palo, and across different palos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2010 6:48:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14834
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Developing dynamics - Loud Vs Quiet (in reply to flybynight)

a. Dynamics can be used at any time, especially when learning compas strumming patterns. It is important to always use metronome to keep a solid tempo. The general tendency is to rush when getting louder or attacking a phrase louder.

b. there are times it can very difficult to keep the volume level flat, and it is also technique related. Some things have dynamics naturally because of the nature of the technique used. That can be fine, or for example, the challenge is to keep a heavy rasgueado from getting too loud. It all depends on context.

c. This depends on taste. Becareful generalizing that using dynamics more is "modern" as old players did not use them. That is not always the case. Melchor de Marchena used lots of extreme dynamics as did Diego del Gastor. Some players simply need to play loud because they are used to loud stomping feet and palmas. Others play different or softer because the singers they perform with have softer voices. Some singers are super loud and their accompanists need to respond to that appropriately.

And one final thing is mastering of recordings, and remastering of old recordings, COMPRESSION of some sort is always used and by the nature of the technology, dynamics are necessarily squashed as to have a uniform recording w/out need of volume nob adjustment. You may find more dynamics present in old Records than the remastered CD versions. A player should be careful trying to match the dynamics of a mastered recording or TV performance, since some soft attacks are boosted, and some very loud attacks are limited.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2010 8:06:48

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: Developing dynamics - Loud Vs Quiet (in reply to flybynight)

IMO,
Dynamics also comes from choice of strings when holding a chord. i.e playing 1, 2 or 3 strings at a time they could be the bass only or treble or mids.

The teacher I learn from who is a professional flamenco guitarist says that the older style flamenco filled out the compas much more than contemporary where leaving space is much more an issue. Not to say that this is a hard rule though.

cheers
Richard

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2010 11:01:34

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Developing dynamics - Loud Vs Quiet (in reply to flybynight)

here's an article by douglas niedt (who's a classical guitarist but i still think it's relevant) on dynamics.

http://douglasniedt.com/techtipexaggeratedynamics.html

if you don't feel like reading it, in summary, it says that you must exaggerate your dynamics if you want your audience to hear it.

a)i like to think of dynamics and tone in the same general category. i spend a lot of time "thinking" about the tone and dynamics that i want. then it's all about experimenting. i think everyone should practice dynamics from the start. but when practicing purely technique, it's probably best to try to keep everything even and flat.

b)playing for dancers is a different situation, at least it is for me. i have to play as loud as i can for the entire time basically. solo and for singers, there's much more freedom, though i've yet to work with a real singer.

c)ditto what ricardo said.

continuing on from what ricardo said about compression, you don't necessarily hear the difference in loudness in recordings but you can definitely hear it in the feel and with the tone. that's why i think dynamics and tone are related. they go hand in hand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2010 18:06:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14834
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Developing dynamics - Loud Vs Quiet (in reply to flybynight)

One more thing. Performing live, using the microphone is an art all it's own in regards to expressing dynamics. For example moving away from the mic you have less volume, but also a thinner tone. Moving close you have more volume, but a fatter tone. This becomes a main issue for those that perform with live sound a lot.

Most classical guitarists have a prejudice against live sound reinforcement, prefering the purity of the acoustic guitar and concert hall, but flamencos have learned to embrace the possiblities of sound reinforcement for the guitar and voice. That makes the concept of technique and dynamics very different for the two genres IMO.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2010 18:52:53

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: Developing dynamics - Loud Vs Quiet (in reply to flybynight)

I agree with most that were said above (including Ricardo's comments about mics - thank God for them).

I think the term that is not used often enough is MUSICAL SENSITIVITY. More musically sensitive you are, more you will naturally employ dynamics (amongst many other things) and you will naturally do them at the right places as long as you have the technique and musical knowledge to back it up.

And as for playing for baile, you can still be very musical while you are bashing the heck out of the guitar

Not that I'm saying that you should bash it all the time while you are accompanying! Quite contrary really...

Always be musically sensitive - I'm doing my best - and it should answer most of the questions