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String length & tension.
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bugeyed
Posts: 56
Joined: Aug. 24 2009
From: Conroe, Texas
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RE: String length & tension. (in reply to bugeyed)
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I am basing my statement on the fact that short scale steel string guitars have lower tension on the strings & long scale are higher. Here's a quote from the D'Addario site, "The longer the scale, the higher the tension is for the same string tuned to the same pitch – for example, a standard Fender™ guitar at 25½” scale has more string tension and will feel stiffer than a standard Gibson™ 24¾” scale guitar, even if both are tuned to the same standard pitch." I know this to be true & I suspect that the whole string, from bridge to roller sees this tension, not just from saddle to nut. Therefore, in our exercise, the 6th string would be tighter & 4th looser relative to the normal setup. I have no idea how much the string tension will differ, but it is noticeable when playing an extremely short scale guitar, like a travel style. Cheers, kev
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Date Nov. 2 2009 12:31:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: String length & tension. (in reply to bugeyed)
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Simple thing to think about. Imagine a little baby sized guitar. You put your strings on, up to pitch of a regular guitar, and they will be floppy. That is why little guitars are often tuned to higher pitches. Think Violins and Cellos too. Regarding the milimeters involved with flamenco guitars, standard sized, as a player I have not noticed a significant difference. The MAIN difference is not break angle, string length scale length, nut, etc etc....it is simple the action. A low action over the fingerboard feels looser and easier plain and simple. High action always feels stiff. The actual bridge is something else, you can set up a low bridge with almost ZERO break angle, that still has a high stiff action over the fingerboard. And vice versa, you can have a mile high bridge (like humphry) and the action on the neck COULD BE super low....and no orders of magnitude high volume or any such nonsense, just a loose floppy buzzy guitar. Ideal guitar for flamenco will always be...low bridge as possible....low action on fingerboard but not TOO low. Some buzz and looseness is allowed for snap, but you need to play hard with out loosing all tone. That is pretty simple concept to me as a player. Why so many different types of set ups for flamenco guitars is a mystery to me still. Ricardo
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Date Nov. 2 2009 20:31:25
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bugeyed
Posts: 56
Joined: Aug. 24 2009
From: Conroe, Texas
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RE: String length & tension. (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M quote:
but I would tend to reckon that tension=tension=tension. I suppose what I'm trying to say is... Take 2 guitars with EXACTLY the same scale length (hence "vibratory" length, nut to bridge), but DIFFERENT distances between tie blocks and rollers. The corresponding strings on each guitar would have IDENTICAL tension, for the same pitch, regardless of string length. No? cheers, Ron Thanks, Ron, for getting back to the original issue. I see what you are saying & I am leaning the other way. The way I see it, the whole string, from tie-block to roller, sees the tension. The vibration pattern of the string is between the saddle & nut, but the tension on the string is felt between it's anchors at each end (tie-block & roller). Anyway, it's an interesting question. BTW Have you tried the alternate string set-up yet? I have not.
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Date Nov. 3 2009 4:22:51
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: String length & tension. (in reply to bugeyed)
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quote:
I see what you are saying & I am leaning the other way. The way I see it, the whole string, from tie-block to roller, sees the tension. The vibration pattern of the string is between the saddle & nut, but the tension on the string is felt between it's anchors at each end (tie-block & roller). Yeah Bugeyed....but are you saying the tension is different? If that's the case, then it would also be different along the scale length, making a different pitch. Tension is just tension and must be the same along the whole length of the string. (This is not actually practically the case immediately after tuning, because of slight friction causing gripping the string at the nut and the bridge but it will eventually "creep" to equalize over time). But assuming free movement at the bridge and the nut, the string tension MUST be the same in both guitars to have the same pitch for the same scale length surely? It surely can't be different from the roller to the nut, then the same from the nut to the saddle, then different from the saddle to the tieblock. That's a single string with 3 different tensions! I've never heard of that! cheers, Ron
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Date Nov. 3 2009 6:20:47
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: String length & tension. (in reply to bugeyed)
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quote:
Thanks Anders. Are you aware of the origin of this discussion? It started with a recommendation to swap the 6th & 4th strings at the rollers, in order to lengthen the 6th. See "Bass strings on opposite rollers". The poster felt that the 6th felt looser & the 4th firmer. Do you have an opinion on, first, whether this configuration is beneficial &, second, if this length change would feel different? Thanks & keep up the good work. kev No, I havent yet. The problem is that if I string a guitar like that and post a photo or a video with it, I´ll have to answer 50 mails during the next couple of weeks, telling why I do so. I´m not in the mood for this right now. Another thing. Yes, theoretically the 4th string will be tenser and the 6th string looser. And so what? String sets are calibrated to equal out the tension. Also a tighter 4th string close to the 3rd string which is the loosest, is that something positive? In some aspects I´m a straighthead. My car (24 year old Mercedes 190 diesel) drives the same way always. Its very slow.
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Date Nov. 3 2009 7:47:49
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: String length & tension. (in reply to bugeyed)
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Yes to tune the WHOLE string length to the same pitch. To tune 2 strings of different lengths to the same pitch, you need different tensions. But you're not doing that. The only thing that control the pitch is the saddle-nut distance, string mass and string tension. Which MUST be identical in guitars with the same saddle-nut distance... which in turn determines the scale length. So it wouldn't matter if the roller was on a stick extending out to TWICE the length of the guitar itself, or even more. The actual tension measured by an in-line tension guage or fishing scale, would be EXACTLY the same, regardless of nut to roller distance. As ne85a said, this would possibly change the feel of the deflection force, which would be less, the greater the string length, since the WHOLE string stretches, not just the nut-saddle part. (However, this would be more noticable if you pulled the string as in a bow and arrow, but less significant when actually playing IMO, as I have stated earlier.) But NOT the axial tension of the string itself. The thing that is confusing the debate further is that some folk are using the term "string tension" when they mean "stiffness" or "deflection force", which is not the same thing. Hey Deniz is a physics guy...has he got something to add here? Edit: OK I see Deniz has just added that caped or fretted strings have "more tension". Wow.. really? Like the axial string tension gets higher? In that case you have invented a "force amplifier" and a possible solution to the World's energy problems! Or does it just feel "stiffer"? cheers, Ron
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Date Nov. 3 2009 10:13:37
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