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RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
It's a simple mechanical engineering question. A cable of a given tension will deflect more at a longer length, than it will at a shorter length. You have effectively lengthened the 6th String and shortened the 4th string. The Nut is only the end of the cable with regard to the vibratory length. The roller is the end of the cable with regard to tensile length.
The drawback is that you've likely increased the mechanical force on the neck since the heavier cable has more of a lever to pull on now :)
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
It would have the same tension, however the string will deflect more.
The length of the vibrating section, and the tension determine the pitch BUT the tensile length (from bridge, to roller) will have an effect on how much the string deflects when you pluck it. It's more complicated that just that, but that's why when you change the strings roller it probably feels slightly different.
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
I'm not a luthier, but I think the break angle really applies to the bridge, and that would stay the same. The saddle top and string tiepoint, form a little triangle with the soundboard. Which tranfers vibrations from the string into the soundboard. The string angle across the Nut I wouldn't think would have as much effect as that across the saddle.
The sharper the string bends across bridge, the more leverage it has to flex the soundboard.
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)
quote:
It would have the same tension, however the string will deflect more.
The length of the vibrating section, and the tension determine the pitch BUT the tensile length (from bridge, to roller) will have an effect on how much the string deflects when you pluck it.
what do you mean by deflect? i would figure that since the nut is there, anything that happens behind it would have no significant effect.
i think it looks kind of silly. kinda makes it look a noob changed my strings. but i guess you cant knock something until you try it.
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to at_leo_87)
quote:
what do you mean by deflect? i would figure that since the nut is there, anything that happens behind it would have no significant effect.
Note that the nut restricts the string movement in the direction perpendicular to the string, but not in the direction tangent to it. Meaning the nut only holds the string for vibrations, the nut doesn't do anything to the tension force which runs along the string, it's the roller that works against that.
Posts: 283
Joined: Jul. 10 2007
From: Leigh, Lancashire, UK
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
I've just re-strung Louis' C3F in this configuration.
Looked at from above the nut the 6th string certainly has a straighter run over the nut, but the 4th string now has more of a angled run than before to meet the roller.
I also filed the nut slightly for the 4th string to take into account the steeper angle of the string down from the nut to the roller.
I agree it looks strange, and I'm not convinced there will be an appreciable difference, but we shall see
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)
My gut feeling is that any change in deflection would be negligible.
Also, although the tensile length is goverened by the fixed length of the string and not by the nut, (or theoretically, the bridge too), when using a capo, quite often the tension from capo to bridge is different to that from capo to roller. (Hence players will 'fine tune' by pushing or pulling the string in front of, or behind the capo.
So what would the 'tensile length' be in that case? And would the deflection properties change in that case?
Discuss the mathematical theorems involved. Please use both sides of the paper and show your workings in the margin. An invigilator will be present should you require more paper or a pen. You have 2.00 hours, after which you are required to stop writing and your papers will be collected by a member of staff.
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
Just get a weight, and a fishing scale and hang it from the sting at the midpoint the measure the deflection. Compare using the different rollers. That's the simplest way.
Now that being said, I'm NOT an advocate of the idea, I just happen to work with cables, and cable tensions in airplanes, so I know a little about the subject.
I'm happy with my guitar's in normal configuration.
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to n85ae)
Even a placebo effect is worth it.
Besides the way of stringing and wrapping I discovered that the strings can be effectively cleaned using a polishing cloth with some furniture cleaner (the one with orange peel oil). The cleaner is not lubricating like soap but degreases the string quickly. You will notice a loud squeaking sound when the string is clean. They sound fresh and brilliant afterwards.
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
Discuss the mathematical theorems involved. Please use both sides of the paper and show your workings in the margin. An invigilator will be present should you require more paper or a pen. You have 2.00 hours, after which you are required to stop writing and your papers will be collected by a member of staff.
Posts: 56
Joined: Aug. 24 2009
From: Conroe, Texas
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
n85ae wrote "It's a simple mechanical engineering question. A cable of a given tension will deflect more at a longer length, than it will at a shorter length. You have effectively lengthened the 6th String and shortened the 4th string."
Problem here, as I see it, is that we are not talking about a "given tension". For a given string diameter, a longer string requires a higher tension to tune to a given pitch. Seems to me that the 6th string would be tighter & the 4th looser. Isn't that right if we consider the string length from bridge to roller or do we use the distance from saddle to nut in this exercise?
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RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
On the topic of Ruben, I went down to Toronto yesterday to visit him. Hes actually a really nice person and the Andalusian guitars are actually really good compared to the Alhambra 10, 7f and the Rodriguez (sp) that I tried out around Toronto. For the price he quoted me on one I am considering buying one off him. He helped me with my budget too.
They also feel really good, and deffinitly kicks the ass out of my 700 dollar la patrie classical which I still love
His camera does shame to the guitars on youtube, they sound much much much better in person.
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to cRobson12)
But have you tried the alternate stringing method? I am always curious about ways of stringing the guitar.
In terms of guitars and all, I am also a firm believer that you can get a great guitar that sounds very flamenco for 1000$. We can't all have Condes that cost as much as a car.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to ToddK)
Actually I was watching some video on La Sonanta I believe and I could swear it was this R. Diaz guy showing that this was NOT the way to string your guitar.
RE: Bass strings on opposite rollers (in reply to Bman)
That would not surprise me at this point! but I guess it's always best in these matters to see what the real pros do. These are people who devote hours to their playing and improving their sound I imagine, and I have never seen or heard of anyone stringing the guitar up like this. So, I suppose it is probably not that significant a difference in sound and feel. Still, I was curious, but no one had much to say about this.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
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