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What are good measurements at the 12th fret for action height?   You are logged in as Guest
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darylcrisp

 

Posts: 69
Joined: Mar. 30 2008
 

What are good measurements at the 12... 
I have a Conde EF4 (student model), that is quite nice. I want to lower the action some, it plays great-just a little high for my taste. What are good measurements to have the action at for ease of playing?

thanks
daryl
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2009 15:11:18
 
darylcrisp

 

Posts: 69
Joined: Mar. 30 2008
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
never mind, i found the measurements in my notes.

thanks
d
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2009 19:19:39
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
Following up with a question. The consensus seems to be that ideal flamenco action requires 3 mm (or less) at the 12th fret, from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. Have there been any flamenco guitarists of note who preferred and played with a higher action, say 3.5 mm or greater? Or have they all played with low action?

Cheers,

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2009 6:48:30
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
Quite a few very good Spanish flamenco players prefer a bit more than 3mm
Especially the one playing very hard in very noisy environments.

There´s a big difference in playing at home or in a noisy peña. At home, I have no problems with 2,8mm or less, but when having to produce real volume and playing hard, I prefer an action which is a little bit higher.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2009 9:19:36
 
newmenco

 

Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 3 2009
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
I just received a vintage Conde, from the early 60's. I think mine may be been considered a student model at the time. It wasn't a concert guitar, so I'm kind of assuming a student model like yours.

Here are some measurements I took tonight, because your post made me curious.

I also have a Cordoba 30f I used for comparison.

I haven't played it yet, so I don't know how that action will play out. I actually had the strings off to repair some cracks, but I put one back on just for some measurements.

E string 12th fret is 2mm. The Cordoba is 4mm.

The distance between the soundboard and bottom of slot is the same on both--3mm.

The saddle on the Conde is 4mm tall. Cordoba is 5mm tall.

The bridge height: Conde-almost 6mm. Cordoba-7.5mm

Distance between soundboard and top of saddle: Conde-7.5mm, Cordoba, 11mm.

Slot depth: Conde-3mm. Cordoba-5mm

I put in .5mm shim, which increased the action to about 3.2mm

For me, what all this means is that, with the Conde, I started with a slot depth of 3mm, and a 4mm saddle. 75% of the saddle was in the slot.

By adding the shim, I now only have 62% of the saddle in the slot.

On the Cordoba, if I lower the saddle, I end up with proportionately more material in the slot.

Maybe it's all academic, and I'm making much ado about nothing, but I prefer to have more of the saddle in the slot, than less of it.

And, it ultimately affects the break angle, but I'm not sure really where to go with that. I read another post that said less break angle is more desirable on flamenco guitars...???

So, if I need the extra height in the saddle, I'll have to make a new one.

Speaking of which, the Conde saddle is 1mm thick. The Cordoba is 2mm thick. Anybody else got thin saddles?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2009 19:33:34
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
First of all, you cant use meassurements with one string on the guitar to do anything. You need to have all strings on and have the guitar tuned to pitch. If not you just get misinformation.
The Cordoba looks like having a fairly typical Valencia factory setup with a big and heavy bridge.
The conde sounds like it can be set up nicely. a 1mm saddle, I´ve never seen...
Condes from the 60th can be anything. A lot of "condes" were made in Andalucia. Some by makers who later on turned out to be very good makers (Bellido, Marín Montero) others were made by not so well known makers. Some can be nice some can be totally dead. I´ve seen quite a few in the last category and only a few in the first category. Many were made very light, also to light.

IMO, if the saddle is well situated in its slot, it doesnt matter if it has up to 60 - 70 % above the bridge. This talking about structural integrety and sound/attack
Another thing is that most players prefer a low bridge/saddle setup, but a 8 - 9mm setup on a 5,5mm bridge is perfectly ok.

Last, you can always find some post on the internet where someone says whatever, but I will say that less breakangle is not desired on any guitar. The whole talk about breakangle is IMO totally out of proporcion. To me, when a bridge setup has enough breakangle, then its enough. Around 20 degrees is enough. Another thing is that on a low setup and especially on a new guitar its desireable to have more. because one day you might end up ot having enough breakangle. Guitar necks and angles often change with time and many guitars with a 7mm bridge setup when new end up with a poor action when they get older.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2009 0:09:55
 
newmenco

 

Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 3 2009
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Last, you can always find some post on the internet where someone says whatever, but I will say that less breakangle is not desired on any guitar. The whole talk about breakangle is IMO totally out of proporcion. To me, when a bridge setup has enough breakangle, then its enough. Around 20 degrees is enough. Another thing is that on a low setup and especially on a new guitar its desireable to have more. because one day you might end up ot having enough breakangle. Guitar necks and angles often change with time and many guitars with a 7mm bridge setup when new end up with a poor action when they get older.


I agree with what you are saying. Only when I started researching flamenco set up did I read someone say less break angle on flamenco is more desireable. I've only been working on guitars for not quite two years, (no flamenco, though), and it didn't make sense.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2009 5:54:51
 
jlneng

Posts: 118
Joined: Jun. 28 2009
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
My 2 cents, Don't ever shim a saddle or nut to raise either, make a new saddle or nut. The transfer of energy from the saddle through the bridge to the top is very important for the volume and projection of the guitar. If your instrument came with a shim, I would remedy that....JMHO
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2009 14:31:27
 
newmenco

 

Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 3 2009
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to jlneng) 
I agree. I use shims to determine final height for playability, and then make new saddle, lose the shims.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2009 19:05:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
To be honest, its very much on the theoretical level this with shimms. put a 1mm veneer under the saddle and try to be honest when you listen to the guitar. I always make a new saddle, but there´s nothing wrong in gluing a piece of veneer on the bottom of the nut in order to raise it a bit. After all veneer is solid wood. Just thin. I would never put a piece of plastic under a nut.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2009 0:18:01
 
newmenco

 

Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 3 2009
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
As Anders correctly pointed out (and I forgot), make all measurements at pitch.

I just put strings on this Conde, and I guess the gods must be smiling on me.

I have:
3mm at 12th fret.
8mm at bridge.
8.5 at the soundhole.

Do those sound familiar? I discovered Anders' website, and those are the specs he goes for.

So, big tip of the hat to Anders for providing specs to use for reference!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2009 22:04:16
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What are good measurements at th... (in reply to darylcrisp) 
Its a good setup.

I used to play with a lower setup, but since I play more out now with other people, I have gone back to 3mm at the 12th fret. It just projects better for me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2009 1:40:07
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