Intonation on a classical guitar

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bugeyed

Posts: 56
Joined: Aug. 24 2009
From: Conroe, Texas

Intonation on a classical guitar

I am going to replace the saddle on my Yamaha CG171SF with bone & would like to know any tips for intonating/compensating the saddle. The current plastic saddle is carved for the G string, making it a bit longer. I have been told that this is not necessary. Any info is appreciated.
Thanks,
kev

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2009 16:18:25

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

This is called compensation. I think it's unusual for classical and flamenco guitars and such a thing would only be done to resolve a specific problem.

However, I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

Here are some informational links for you from FRETS.com:

Lowering action at the saddle.

Making a new saddle.

I would suggest ordering a couple blanks and using the blanks to lower the action. This way, if you moof your first attempt or ever want to put it back the old way (to sell it maybe), you can just pop the original back in.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2009 17:05:48

bugeyed

Posts: 56
Joined: Aug. 24 2009
From: Conroe, Texas

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

I asked about "compensating" the saddle on another forum & was told it was not necessary. I was then told ("Slope the rear (tie-block side) of the saddle gently downward toward the tie-block so the string leaves the saddle gently on it's way to the tie-block. You can leave the front sharp or just slightly rounded for now as you will carve it and shape it when you intonate.") I have asked this person what they mean by intonate, if it's not compensating. I suspect that he means that there is no need for drastic compensation as in a steel string, but subtle shaping of the saddle may be done to get the intonation correct. As I stated, my Yamaha has the G string position of the saddle shaped like the B string of many steel string guitars. Is it standard practice on classicals to shape the point that the strings break over the saddle for each string to get the intonation correct?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2009 17:36:06

Aadi

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 30 2009

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

A normal set of nylon strings requires much less compensation than a set of steels; this is why classical guitars have perpendicular saddles. But unless you are favored by the gods and all of your strings are properly intonated straight away, you'll want to make small adjustments to your saddle to make them so. Here's something from another thread where I outlined what I do to accomplish this:

quote:

[P]lace a short length of wire (a cutoff from an electric guitar G string actually) underneath one of the strings at the saddle so the nylon string only touches the saddle at the wire--the wire is the contact point. Bend the wire into a V shape so it rests easily under the string and you have something to pull on to reposition it. Then tune the string to pitch and use a tuner (strobe is preferred) to measure the correspondence between the string's 12th-fret harmonic and fretted note. You'll probably notice the fretted note and harmonic are not the same. If the fretted note is sharp, move the wire further back towards the tie block and repeat. If it's flat, move the wire forward towards the soundhole. When you find the spot where the fretted note and harmonic are the same, mark the wire's location on the saddle with a pencil. This is the point at which the string must break over the saddle for it to be in tune. Repeat this procedure for the remaining strings, then file the saddle so that it has peaks at your pencil marks. When you're done, your guitar will be as harmonious as possible.

If anybody has a better method, I'd love to hear it. This is some tedious stuff.

Oh, and the peaks need to be round on top to prevent string breakage.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2009 18:47:09

bugeyed

Posts: 56
Joined: Aug. 24 2009
From: Conroe, Texas

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

Thanks Aadi,
I'm familiar with that method, just hadn't had anyone reference it to nylons.
I'm off to get my bone saddle. I'll get two just in case. I will need one for my Martin kit when I get started on it.
Thanks,
kev

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 4 2009 19:48:41

duendesoul

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 10 2007

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

I have been able to significantly improve the intonation on my PAVAN negra. by;

1) widening the saddle slot to fit a 5/32" bone rather than the 1/8" it came with - I had to get closer to the 12th fret because the bass strings were flat.
2) The BIG "B" string issue. It was so sharp at the 12th fret with the original set-up. I had to go back about 1/32" from the furthest part of the original saddle to the 12th fret. In order to achieve that with a solid surface to rest the B string, I had to carve a slot in the bridge and glue a mini saddle to the regular saddle so I can distance the B string properly from the 12th fret to compensate the intonation. I also had to carve out a tie slot for the string in order to allow for string clearance from the knot to the saddle.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE ATTEMPT THIS, BUT I ACHIEVED A LEVEL OF INTONATION ONLY FOUND ON PRIMERA GUITARS BY THIS REPAIR.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2009 8:24:02

Kubase

Posts: 72
Joined: May 20 2009

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

Is this why I have to retune when switching to/from using a capo?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2009 1:37:23

duendesoul

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 10 2007

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to Kubase)

no,when using capo you are actually streching the strings and depending on the fret size and how tight your capo is - you in effect put the guitar out of tune when securing the capo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2009 14:20:19

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

Why is it, i bought a classical guitar about a year ago, and the intonation was excellent, but after some time, the B and G strings have slowly gone sharp.

I just had the saddle compensated and its ok now.

But why did it change? Is the top of my guitar moving? Should i be worried about this?

I studied the bridge closely, and it is not lifting at all. I can see the braces bulging through the top behind the bridge very slightly, but that's it. The guitar looks fine.

Any thoughts?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2009 22:13:11

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to duendesoul)

quote:

widening the saddle slot to fit a 5/32" bone rather than the 1/8" it came with

I was told by a professional that this couldn't be done, so I went home and did it and got perfect intonation. You must always do this with new strings though. String loose their intonation as they get older. Funny how some guitars get problems with the "B" string and others the "G" string. Mind you - G strings have been a problem for a long time.

I think wider bones should be standard and properly set-up, that's if the makers is getting paid enough.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2011 15:49:37

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to ToddK)

Well Todd. one reason why the innotation would change over the first year is that the neck relief and string height will probably have slightly increased over that peroid as the guitar settled in.
Whilst a builder should have it in the right ballpark, the ideal time to finess the innotation would probably be after 6 months of play, when you have decided on string brand and tension, and in conjunction with saddle height adjustment to personal preferences.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2011 20:36:36

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

after 6 months of play, when you have decided on string brand and tension, and in conjunction with saddle height adjustment to personal preferences.

Nice point Jeff. We forget these instruments are alive and always like some human to blame for miss-givings. I think I'm a little too hasty sometimes.

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Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2011 21:27:02

Gimar Yestra

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
From: The Netherlands

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

easy way I learned to tell in wich direction your saddle needs compensation.

1)tune open string
2)play 12th fret note
3)look at your tuner: below is to simulate the "needle" on your tuner (with "needle" I mean that thing that tells u wether your tuning is flat, in tune or sharp).

flat perfect pitch sharp
\ | /

adjust the saddle in the direction the "needle" point

example:
so open E string is tuned to perfect E
12th fret is pointing to the left ( \ ) on your tuner (or flat) the saddle needs to be adjusted to the left (cuz the needle points to the left).

I have no idea if this makes sence, showing this in real life is super easy and im sure everyone would understand without thinking, but with words its kind of sketchy :D

also adjusting the height of the saddle with change intonation, for whoever didn't know yet

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2011 22:30:40

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Intonation on a classical guitar (in reply to bugeyed)

Any thoughts on how many cents is acceptable to be the difference between 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic? I like to use savarez alliance g string but usually the intonation is 5-10 cents flat.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2013 22:20:26