Action

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Action

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Action

Just raised the action on my R Sanches 2a f, and it doesn’t seem to have made a lot of difference, Its now 4 ½ mm from 12th fret- string bottom 6th string, also I have stuck tooth picks under the saddle to raise the bridge bone. Two questions, should the action be roughly high enough to fit a cigarette snugly under the string, what is the height of action from the great makers i.e. Reyes etc.and also there is spaces between the bone and the saddle slot, due to the tooth pick used to raise it, but there doesent seem to be any detriment to the volume or sound. I have noticed on some classicals the bridge has little arches, so the bone lies flat. But can’t hear any difference, when I have done this myself, one other thing I have used plastic in the past for the bone, and also can't hear any difference between that and bone
Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2004 10:59:52

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Action (in reply to Guest)

4.5 mil at 12th fret/6th is way too high for a flamenco guitar IMO. I have mine at 2.5mm. Even my classical guitars aren't that high, Dave.
You don't say why you are needing to raise the action so high? Whats the problem?
Generally the aim is to get the action as low as possible without too much buzzing. A low action is easier to play, is less strain on both hands, and is less likely to cause you intonation problems.

The big name makers don't have a 'set action height' as these things are down to the preference of the individual player. If I was paying three grand for a hand made guitar, I'd expect the guitar to be set up exactly how I like it. (the same thing applies in the electric guitar world - eg Gibson and Fender don't have a set action height).

For factory made guitars, there is certainly no consistency. I tried out lots of different guitars in the sub £1000 bracket and even when it came to the same model, the action varied enormously with different guitars, in the same shop.

Bone transmits the vibration from the strings more efficiently to the soundboard than plastic, so is a better choice for saddle material. Its actually a good cheap upgrade for cheaper guitars that come with plastic saddles.

Anything that comes between the saddle and its contact with the guitar in the bridge slot can impede the sound, by absorbing some of the vibrations.

HTH.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2004 11:30:40

gerundino63

Posts: 1744
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Action (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Hi

I have been told by a respected duch guitarbuilder , that a classical guitar is mostly 4.5 mm with the 12th fret, and a flamenco 3.5mm.

(ofcourse some have it lower than that, I have mine lower too)

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2004 17:18:16

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Action (in reply to Guest)

Action on new guitars can be set quite low with buzzes in the knowledge that the neck angle will 'settle' to a slightly higher action with time.
Wood moves and as such I don't think a maker can be too exact about these things. That's why new guitars always end up back for adjustment and top players tend to play guitars by local makers.
Just my own thoughts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2004 18:55:52

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Action (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer

That's why new guitars always end up back for adjustment and top players tend to play guitars by local makers.
Just my own thoughts.

Apart from filing down the saddle, how easy is it to correct the action of a guitar - what is involved? Presumably the neck must be readjusted.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2004 0:20:31

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Action (in reply to Guest)

Hey, man we're playing flamenco guitars and we don't have Floyd Rose tremolos my man. To adjust the action you just shave down the saddle. Or perhaps the nut, it has an effect too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2004 0:56:02

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Action (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes

You don't say why you are needing to raise the action so high? Whats the problem?
Thanks
The thing is Jon I play a lot of Riqueni type stuff which is very classical guitar in techique, I find low action guitars are great as Buleria guitars, but if you are playing chords, and scale runs high up the neck, the sound becomes thin, but I suppose you have to make a comprimise, I have always felt playing with high action also builds up invaluble strengh in the muscles.
Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2004 1:45:51

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Action (in reply to hamia)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia
Apart from filing down the saddle, how easy is it to correct the action of a guitar - what is involved? Presumably the neck must be readjusted.

No, there is no easy adjustment you can make to the neck (with the exception of some electro-acoustic flamenco guitars, which are fitted with truss rods). The neck could be reset, but this would only be financially worth it if you had a very expensive guitar and it was basically broken.

Nut height, saddle height, string gauge and to a certain extent fret height/profile are the things you can tinker with to improve the action. Its a balancing act and they work together, along with the player's preferences. Having said that, the nut has a 'correct' height it must be set at in relation to the guitar.

What many people don't realise is that when a guitar is finished, it needs to be properly set up (though there is a settling in process as JIm points out).
With hand made guitars, they will get a set up. With factory made guitars, they don't as it
would add to the price and they need to be competitive.

Therefore, anyone who buys a factory guitar will not be getting the most out of it until it has been properly set up. The difference it makes can be quite astounding, depending on how 'out' the guitar was when it left the factory.

If you want to tweak this yourself and you have never done this before, I would recommend playing with a cheap guitar before you try and alter your main guitar. It takes a lot of practice and patience to file little bits of bone to within half-millimetre, and thats the kind of accuracy you need. Personally, I wouldn't bother as your local guitar tech/luthier will do a much better job and a for a small fee which is a great investment for the guitar.

I don't know where you are in the world, but I just paid £25 to have a new bone saddle cut to my specifications and the nut height adjusted properly. Bargain.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2004 8:54:42

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Action (in reply to Billyboy)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Billyboy
The thing is Jon I play a lot of Riqueni type stuff which is very classical guitar in techique, I find low action guitars are great as Buleria guitars, but if you are playing chords, and scale runs high up the neck, the sound becomes thin,

OK, I see what you mean. I agree that that the low action contributes to that raspy, thinner sound that most of us aim for, and I can see why you would want a cleaner and more resonant sound for what you play.

I think it would be a shame to 'de-flamenco' your Sanchis, though. Have you tried playing over the soundhole more, and digging in more with your free stroke (a more classcal technique approach, in other words.)? I was recently asked to play Cavatina at a wedding for the bride's entrance, and I used my Sanchis flamenco rather than my classical guitar. I did this as Cavatina is a bitch for the left hand, and the lower action on my S. made it much easier to play. By playing over the soundhole, and really digging in to a get a full tone, it sounded fine.

Or you could save up and buy a cheap classical?

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2004 9:11:36

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: Action (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Hey, man we're playing flamenco guitars and we don't have Floyd Rose tremolos my man. To adjust the action you just shave down the saddle. Or perhaps the nut, it has an effect too.

Well, I was getting worried. I bought a flamenco guitar a month ago and when it arrived the action was 2/16 of an inch at the 12th, I noticed a few days ago that it seemed to be higher and found it was 3/16. Nearly 5mm. So there's been some movement of the neck in that short space of time. I was keeping it in a case near a window and didn't notice that the sun was heating up the guitar inside - maybe this has had an effect. The good news is that the saddle is pretty high and has plenty of scope for being shaved down a couple millimeters. I now keep the guitar in the shade!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2004 15:35:48

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Action (in reply to hamia)

The saddle notch in the bridge could be deepened as well (with tenon saw & 1-2mm chisel) as long as it has some depth to spare without weakening it.

The overall factors are:
1. the angle of the fingerboard/neck to the body (usually the top of the headstock is about 3cms further forward than the plane of the soundboard, if the guitar was built on a Solera)
2. the nut - seating and notching
3. the fretting - the profile after filing
4. the saddle - height
5. the bridge - the depth of the saddle notch
5. the luthier

Only a competent luthier should attempt to set up the action for you beyond basic nut and saddle adjustments (they are made of animal bone and very cheap to replace).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2004 15:54:10

Guest

RE: Action (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon, I don't know about your Sanchis, but I find the tension of the sound board very very slack, meaning even with D'Darrio extra hard tension strings, the action is very floppy, and playing over the sound hole is even worse. I like to dig in with the right hand, and if the action is too low arpegios, just hook on the nails. Now some guitars ive played, suit lower acion, because maybe they have more internal struts. Its a major gripe with the Sanchis, and is why I'm thinking of selling it. I have always had quite strong hands and fingers, and like the workout I get from slightly higher action. I remember trying Juan Martins Negro Conde, after a Class, and was surprised at the higher action, than norm. But I think it would be difficult to play Tomatitos stuff on such a guitar, but there is no perfect guitar I agree.
Thanks
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2004 11:23:43