Sometimes...

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Sometimes...

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Sometimes...

Sometimes I wonder if I'm really getting anywhere with this stuff.
Over the weekend I was listening to some Bulerias that defies any counting system I know of, yet is fantastically rhythmic and is obviously correct.
Sure, there are all those simple rhythmic motifs or frameworks in which you can fit a few notes and call them falsetas and stay in strict Bulerias compás, but there are so many more which seem to defy any logical attempt to work out why the guitarist played certain notes in certain places.
What's going on in those guy's heads that I can't hear?
Sometimes I think I'm getting too old for this stuff and ought to give it up altogether and take up keeping bees instead.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2004 19:52:16

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Ron.M)

Forget it, Ron, unless you're from central Swaziland you'll never cut it as a beekeeper.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2004 20:10:32

gerundino63

Posts: 1746
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Ron.M)

Cheer up Ron!!

It is not importand where you go
It is only important how you go there!

Peter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2004 20:19:49

mentrida

Posts: 55
Joined: Jun. 19 2004

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Ron.M)

Don't feel bad Ron, get this...
I grew up around and listening to flamenco for a few years. Thought I had it and could even do palmas with friends. Yet, now that I am old and trying to "learn" flamenco, I find that I can't count, can't figure out compas and much less do good palmas....
Go figure

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2004 3:46:07

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to mentrida)

They don't actually count, they feel the rhythm of it without a beginning and end. They simply jump in and play with the pattern (this would explain why more often than not, bulerias starts on count 12 and not 1). So long as they still keep the internal pattern, they're still on. Hard to describe and I know it sounds like I'm speaking utter nonesense but I asked a few guitarists in Sevilla and Cadíz that very question. Everybody I asked said the same thing, they don't count. I suppose at some point when first learning, they counted but I suspect by and large, it's a rhythmic pattern thing and not a numeric thing.

I dunno, it's not very clear to me either. I don't count by the way, I tend to screw up and get too distracted when I do. I was told to just feel the pattern and follow it. So, that's what I try to do.......though it really doesn't make actual playing any easier, it just keeps me from falling out of compas (unless I hit something technically that I suck at, then the whole thing goes down the tubes).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2004 4:51:13

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Jamey)

Yeah Jamey,
I think this is why accompaniment is so important.
I think that by constantly actively participating in Flamenco, even just doing palmas, you start to build up a collection of rhythmic phrases from singers, dancers and palmeros that become ingrained over time.
You know each phrase "works out" already, so there is no need to count, just keep basic time. Then you can start playing around with the phrases and discover interesting sub rhythms within them.
But as Mentrida says, it's a skill that can be lost if you don't keep it up.

I definitely think the rhythmic patterns of Bulerias have become very much more complicated and tricky amongst modern soloists now.
I don't know if this is by design or natural growth.
Put on any earlier PdL, Sanlucar etc and the compás is perfectly clear all the way through.
But some of the players now....!

Very frustrating

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2004 8:17:48

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron,

I know exactly what you mean, some of those falsetas just go on and poke fun at what we understand to be compas then out the blue, they're there, right on 7, 8, 9, 10.

It's a wonderous thing and I'd have to say that having talked this over with you since we met, you've made me think more about Buleria than ever in the past.

Head up and walk through walls.

Cheers
Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2004 8:28:23

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Ron.M)

Cheer up Ron, You are probabl listening to somebody's experimentation. Even Estela has trouble with some of those and she's been living amongst it for forty years. Me? I gave up a while ago. It either hits you or it doesn't. That's what all the fuss is about with modern flamenco. I don't even recognise jive anymore. Today, its just gymnastics while music plays. (((-:

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2004 9:20:21

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Ron.M)

Expecting to hear compas in modern flamenco is like looking at "modern art" and figuring out what it's supposed to mean!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2004 15:47:29

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Sometimes... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Expecting to hear compas in modern flamenco is like looking at "modern art" and figuring out what it's supposed to mean!

It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing.

Flamenco sin compás no es flamenco

Kate

ps Miguel did you see my post saying that El Charico ( who you saw at the Peña) won la Union for his Bulería por Solea and his Siguiriya. And according to Estela who saw him he was as nervous as hell

So its not just the beginners then.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2004 19:24:52