RE: Favorite Flamenco Words

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Ricardo

Posts: 14866
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to annemarie)

SONIQUETE

Por Medio

Siguiriya

Borrachera

Manzanilla

Jamon Iberico

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2009 8:16:59

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to fevictor)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fevictor
I always get a kick out of hearing Andaluces talk because their pronunciation is just awful! They speak an incredibly lazy spanish compared to the other spanish speaking countries.

I love the Andaluz accent, it's not awful it's just different. Like the Yorkshire accent " am going t pub, shut t door behind ya" It's not lazy believe me its incredibly hard work to miss out half the letters. It was agreat help when I was learning VIetnamese as well, all those tones.

My Spanish teacher once said that they do actually pronounce the S, you just cant hear it and he demonstrated and yes there was a a distinct difference between mi hijo and mi(s) hijo(s).

My work for the day VIKINGO, sounds very flamenco yet no tiene na' k ver

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2009 5:24:51

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to Kate)

Hi Kate,

Yeah. Glasgwegian misses out the final "t" on words, which seems to make one word run into another if the next word begins with a vowel.... ie "that opening" turns to "tha opnin".

(Note that the "e" vanishes too!)
Also the "ng" sound is simply just "n".

And of course all the vowel sounds are totally different to "English" English.
(Actually more like Spanish)

One thing I do like is the fact we have a plural for "you", so we are never confused on this one.... ie "Will you go away" and "Will youz go away"

.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2009 5:45:38

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to annemarie)

quote:

I love the Andaluz accent, it's not awful it's just different.

Thats true Kate, although I still think that is lazy! "no hay náa ma que pecáo pa comé"....seems kind of lazy to me! Speaking Spanish requires you to move your tongue a lot more and annunciate. Its a lot easier just to say "naa" instead of taking the time to move your tongue to the roof of your mouth and throw that all important D in there and say "naDa". Of course Im not saying that Andaluces are lazy; they speak the correct way with respect to where they are in Spain and where they were born. But that initial way of speaking that has now become "el acento Andalú" is derived from a lazy way of speaking spanish. In fact, take most coastal towns in Latin America: usually the accent changes along with the more laid back way of life. Mexicans in most cities pronounce their words correctly, but go to Vera Cruz and you can say good bye to the S´s! There is a bit of a pattern.

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2009 10:17:11

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to fevictor)

quote:

Of course Im not saying that Andaluces are lazy; they speak the correct way with respect to where they are in Spain and where they were born. But that initial way of speaking that has now become "el acento Andalú" is derived from a lazy way of speaking spanish. In fact, take most coastal towns in Latin America: usually the accent changes along with the more laid back way of life. Mexicans in most cities pronounce their words correctly, but go to Vera Cruz and you can say good bye to the S´s! There is a bit of a pattern.

I read your post out to my wife. Having spent some time in Granada and nearly all her life in D.F., Mexico, she says you are spot on with your observations. I can attest that my Andalú bumbling is incomprehensible to anyone outside of the Junta.

I spoke French fluently in the south (Var) and then had the same trouble when I moved to Paris - I could understand them perfectly (like they were the BBC) but sadly, not the other way around... nada, rien, zilch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2009 13:16:31

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to annemarie)

Rioja!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2009 14:01:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to fevictor)

quote:

Its a lot easier just to say "naa" instead of taking the time to move your tongue to the roof of your mouth and throw that all important D in there and say "naDa".

My old boss at the University (a Phonetics specialist) did some work on this and actually the "d" sound IS there, but usually "simulated" with a quick rising and falling of the "a" sound.

This is the same sort of technique used by the "Whistle Language" of La Gomera in the Canary Islands (a language used for communicating over long distance) where they will "modulate" the frequency of the whistle to emulate the movements made in pronouncing vowels and consonants.

Similarly, in Glasgwegian, the final "t" in words actually IS there, it's just that it's replaced with a "glottal stop" which the locals hear, but outsiders don't.

He said that languages always adjust themselves to the most fluent way of speaking.

ie I believe Spanish speakers say "um Bar" instead of "un Bar", because of the difficulty in moving from the "n" sound to the "b" sound and the "m" is a good enough approximation.

In RP English, "a hotel" changed to "an Otel", because of the same difficulty of suddenly stopping the "a" sound to make the "h" sound.

There is some confusion over this now as some speakers (including BBC broadcasters) will use "an hotel", which makes no sense, as you are left with the same difficulty.

Also, when I grew up, our schoolteachers always stressed that American English was a slang-ridden, utterly lazy and improper approach to both speech and spelling!

As I got older, I realized that it was far from this, but a more rationalized approach to more effective and concise communication in the language and more of an "evolution" of the language than anything "lazy".

Interesting stuff.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2009 4:34:28

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to annemarie)

Interesting points Ron, although I have some corrections to point out: any Spanish speaking person that says "um bar" should be sent back to elementary school immediately! There really isn't any difficulty pronouncing a B or a P after an N. Theres actually a rule that states: "antes de P y B, con M escribire". The only exception that I can think of is rolling the R after an S, like for example "las rocas" or anything similar. What a lot of people end up saying is "lah rocas", but most educated people will try and pronounce the S and then the rolled R.

Now take most cities in developing countries in Latin America; in those cities where education is lacking, or where the way of life is much more laid back, the accent worsens. This is a fact. Pretty much all people who were brought up in big cities have proper pronunciation, or at least it is much better than the smaller towns, especially the coastal ones. Sometimes illiteracy lends itself to poor speaking since people will mimic the sound of a word without knowing what letters it is made up of and how they are supposed to sound. Illiteracy is also a big problem in Latin American countries, not to mention Spain itself. If I'm not mistaken, between 1900 and 1950 the illiteracy rate in Spain was around 50%, and even more so in the south where the economy was worse. Lets not forget that Spain was a 3rd world country up until about 20 or so years ago. So now you have a city in a developing country where illiteracy is high and the economy is low, and the accent is poor / lazy. Its the same pattern.

Theres a saying in Spain that says that the rest of the country works so that the south can rest and play!

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2009 13:03:31

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to fevictor)

Hi Vic,

Well obviously it is difficult to argue with you as Spanish is your native language!

I'm not a language specialist or anything, but simply maintained and operated the equipment used in the Phonetics lab.

(Stuff that would record pulses from the larynx, mouth cavity formants, lip pressure, nasal pressure etc, so the student could analyse what was really going on in a sample of their own speech.)

However, the subject of Phonetics is pretty complex and quite often speakers will feel they are doing something, while in fact they are doing something else.

(eg.. like Glasgwegians thinking they are pronouncing the final "t" when they are actually making a glottal stop).

Anyway here's an interesting reference I found on the net.....

"Yet another sound is produced when the n precedes the letters b, v, or p, or consonantes bilabiales (using both lips). By approximating the next consonant, the n becomes nasal, bilabial, sonora, or in other words, just like the letter m, as in the expression un beso, phonetically [um beso]. "

As a side issue...this is a bit like a theory I have that when you copy a maestro's falseta and practise it on the guitar.
Quite often, you will hear the original recording in your head as you play and think it sounds pretty good, pretty close.
It's only when you record your attempt and play it back that you find out that it's anything but!

You get the same kind of effect listening to someone singing along to a pop song...especially if they are wearing headphones!

Good stuff anyway Vic and I'd be interested what others have to say on this.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2009 3:31:05

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to fevictor)

Victor, I really don't agree with a few things that you're saying. I know what you mean about "lazy" and might even agree with you, but...

quote:

I always get a kick out of hearing Andaluces talk because their pronunciation is just awful!

quote:

any Spanish speaking person that says "um bar" should be sent back to elementary school immediately!

quote:

Theres a saying in Spain that says that the rest of the country works so that the south can rest and play!

...just sounds uptight and elitist to me.

quote:

If I'm not mistaken, between 1900 and 1950 the illiteracy rate in Spain was around 50%, and even more so in the south where the economy was worse. Lets not forget that Spain was a 3rd world country up until about 20 or so years ago.

I don't agree with you at all. Twenty years ago was 1989, I was living in Spain at that time and that's not what I remember. The 1992 Expo was just three years after that.

I don't have the official data, but I remember that Spain made a huge leap in the 1990s on some kind of "quality-of-life" index of countries (might have been from the World Health Organization). In a short time, it went from a very low position to nearly topping the list, and the main reason was supposedly recent improvement in the literacy rate, among other things. If I remember right, the list showed that Spain had a higher literacy rate than the US or the UK.

Lots of generalizations and negative comments in your posts. It sounds to me like you don't like Spain, especially Andalusia.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2009 5:24:45

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to annemarie)

Hi Norman,

I'm not uptight or elitist! Nor do I dislike Spain! My grandparents were born in Spain and moved to Mexico after the civil war. My family is from Valencia, Barcelona and Santander. I was born in Canada and grew up in a Mexican - Spanish family. Spain and its history, language, accent, all that kind of stuff has always been something that we talked about about, and I should mention that I love Anadalucia and Spain in general.

I guess my comments may seem negative to some, but most native Spanish speakers tend to talk openly about accents because there are so many countries in Latin America that speak so differently. People make fun of my Mexican accent because we tend to "sing" when we talk (hablar cantado).

quote:

If I'm not mistaken, between 1900 and 1950 the illiteracy rate in Spain was around 50%, and even more so in the south where the economy was worse. Lets not forget that Spain was a 3rd world country up until about 20 or so years ago.

This is what Ive been led to understand and I apologize if my facts are not 100% - but my last source was a middle aged woman from Madrid that lives here in Costa Rica.

quote:

Theres a saying in Spain that says that the rest of the country works so that the south can rest and play!

I didn't make this one up!! Blame the Spaniards for this one

Anyway Ill tone it down from now on, try and stay Flamenco related, and thanks Norman for your comments. I know that I haven't been a part of this forum very long (at least conversation wise) so people don't yet know me. I like a good debate and my opinions may come across the wrong way. Its just debate though, nothing personal!

All the best,

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2009 5:43:12

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to fevictor)

Victor, thanks for the explanation.

quote:

Ill tone it down from now on...

Please express yourself freely. You've got every right to do that and I'm nobody to be telling others what to say on this forum, although I will speak my mind when in disagreement. Sorry if I came across too harsh!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2009 6:45:07

fevictor

Posts: 377
Joined: Nov. 22 2005
From: Quepos / Manuel Antonio, Costa Rica

RE: Favorite Flamenco Words (in reply to annemarie)

Thanks Norman, and I do have a correction to make to my earlier statement: apparently by 1950 the illiteracy rate was down to about 15%, and I guess we can say that Spain grew considerably after 1975 following Franco's death and by 1986 when it joined the European Union.

Vic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2009 7:25:58