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Flamenco and Middle-Class angst...
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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Flamenco and Middle-Class angst...
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I'm just listening to a programme about the 90th birthday of Pete Seeger, the American Folk legend and a history of his thoughts and performances. Even though he sounds a very decent fellow, and the fact that I came from a generation who listened to him (I certainly didn't! ...I've never been a fan of that stuff! ), I can't help but feel that a lot of this "protest" stuff comes from folk who were bored with a secure Middle-Class background and wanted to spice things up a bit in their lives and if their venture didn't work out to their satisfaction, then they could at least run back to a comfortable home where Mommy would feed them and wash their clothes and Daddy would get them a job at The Company. In a way, I feel the same about the foreign interest in Flamenco. I think it's kinda divided into two parts, although there is room for all the "inbetweenies" The ones who see it as a complex and very interesting music and approach it as a kind of a "new jazz", where it is possible to learn the techniques and participate in the "higher level" stuff at a cerebral/musical "jazz sentiment" level. And others who crave "duende" and "passion" and torture etc with only their own life experiences in High School in Ohio and England and Serbia etc to measure by....and nothing really to do with the past 1900's impoverished South of Spain to base it upon, but somehow feel they have an affinity with the sentiment? A kind of Middle-Class angst? "Mommy....I'm going to run away to the Circus!" I have absolutely no idea where I am on this map, but I like the music a lot and it keeps drawing me back even though I leave it for a while. So what are your thoughts? cheers, Ron
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Date May 2 2009 12:05:25
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Well it should be a clue that Seeger charged $250 to go to his birthday party..my middle aged ex-hippy neighbor went to it. Apart from that though, everyone has pain, even my cat gets depressed, and it has the most comfortable life you could probably imagine. Artists always have pain, if not then they are not a true artist, because you could always be better than you are, and it's that feeling of inadequacy that drives you forward. That's why people like Sedlak, etc are not artists because they get to a certain (low) level and believe that they have already accomplished all they need to. Middle class or not it makes no difference, plenty of great Flamenco artists come from middle class backgrounds. Most Flamenco is not about poverty or even suffering...most of the letras that I know, (apart from Carceleras and stuff like that) are about relationships, which everyone has. And many are playful or even optimistic. If we were talking about hip-hop, that would be a different story ...I had to give up my career as an MC in high school because that really didn't make sense...lol ditto being a blues singer. But I have always needed a way to express myself through music. Now that I've found Flamenco, it's like Pgh said, I just can't put down the ****ing guitar. I dont have a choice.
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Andy Culpepper, luthier http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date May 2 2009 16:40:09
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Interesting post.. quote:
In a way, I feel the same about the foreign interest in Flamenco. I think it's kinda divided into two parts, although there is room for all the "inbetweenies" The ones who see it as a complex and very interesting music and approach it as a kind of a "new jazz", where it is possible to learn the techniques and participate in the "higher level" stuff at a cerebral/musical "jazz sentiment" level. And others who crave "duende" and "passion" and torture etc with only their own life experiences in High School in Ohio and England and Serbia etc to measure by....and nothing really to do with the past 1900's impoverished South of Spain to base it upon, but somehow feel they have an affinity with the sentiment? A kind of Middle-Class angst? "Mommy....I'm going to run away to the Circus!" Really when u think about it our circumstances arent different from a young non-experienced person in Spain wanting to get involved in flamenco but is not from the south...or have any flamenco in his familly or cant actualy relate to 1900's impoverished South of Spain since he wasent born .. they are in Spain but they still have to get out of the house and go and learn it just like us none of them get borned into it and they all can relate to 1900's suffering just as much as any of us who werent born back then..Even if they get borned in the Montoya familly, they still know absoluteley nothing about duende, compas, aire or pain of the 1900 until they start learn it and start training for it ...no different to us... their understanding of subjects like love, pain, death are are the same as anywhere in the world.. the only difference is its their native language ( wich they had to learn as kids also) and the travel smaller distances to get to practice, they have to learn their history out of books just like us, they have to practice like beginners just like us, and slowly develop aire/ understanding/confidence etc.. thats about it..the rest its all achivable wherever you are, knowledge, aire, understanding etc.. so in the end our categories arent that different to anyone in spain imo, we probably all love flamenco and enjoy it for the same reasons anyone in spain does...we just might not have the aquired vocabulary or confidence to expres it yet, but the esence is the same, feelings are the same whatever language u speak or wherever you are born.. when u love something you love it thats it, thats all that matters, there are many different reasons someone loves something...all valid, (weather you have the fancy profound words to explain why or not) ...the rest are just litlle mental barriers we (outsiders) or others impose on ourselfs....if you allow them "aire" and "duende" is not an exclusive genetic spanish cell..is something someone learns or develops over years or practice and study...whatever his native tongue is.. when i think of words like "authentic" i think of advertising gimmics, that dosent really say anything...its like when you got nothing else to add or nothing to make your product stand up above the rest you resort to descriptions like " authentic" "genuine" "traditional" but this descriptions dont acctualy say anything about the quality of the product or why its better, its like a quic eazy way out....really we all know there is no autentic and non authentic, or if there is we more than anyone should know that this type of descriptions are missleading .. what is the first question all of us get asked everytime we show up for a gig ? does the answer to that really give any kind of fair or acurate indication to our skill or experience in comparesment to for example Manuel Gonzales..a spanish emigrant who has been studying 3 years...or plays part time at parties just for fun ...the general public might not know ...you could have been playing for Farruquito in spain ...as far as they are concerned...Manuel will always be better or more "authentic" theres enough missconceptions and uninformed restraints (theres nothing we can do about) placed on us coming from general uninformed public without us having to help and place anymore on ourselfs.. thats why i refuse to think in terms like..them (spanish) and us (outsiders) i keep it simple for myself...good and bad everyone doing flamenco inside or outise spain is a "flamenco" to me, different skills and levels but that depends on the individual not the place of birth however others might see "me" its impossible for me consider myself a guest or outsider to the only thing i have spent half of my life studying and pursuing and beeing involved in and sorrounded by and loved/ if i did i would just do it for their benefit because i dont feel it..i dont allow "others" view of me or limitations they chose to place on themselfs affect the way i view myself Sorry long post i gues the subject is interesting to me, i always feel a litlle bad for people who allow themselfs to feel like second class citizens into the one thing they love and have spent a lifetime doing based only on litlle unchangeble details or missguided versions of respect, outside opinions...whatever, sounds like an exausting unsatifying way to view yourself there are many realities out there and they are all designed by the individuals who live in them in theory with enough work you "could" one day play as good or better than Tomatio and know as much as him or anyone...but you will still be from outside spain...so are you going to let the "spain" thing keep you out all your life ? how many years will it take for you to allow yourself to feel like you arent a guest, like u arent copying flamenco but rather doing it
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Date May 3 2009 7:05:56
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)
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I think the "middle-class angst" that Ron M posits is our old friend Romanticism--the ball that Jean-Jacques Rousseau helped start rolling in the 18th century. Ever since then, each generation has discovered and been discovered by Romanticism--it's happened that, first, Spain several times, then flamenco several times now, have been magnets drawing non-Spaniards south of the Pyrenees. Think Glinka, Rimsky-Korsakov, Bizet, Debussy, Ravel, Chabrier, and then later, even Spaniards like de Falla and Lorca to Andalusia and its gitanos. What's at work? Dissatisfaction with the banality, familiarity, ordinariness of one's everyday culture. And then the availability of time and money to pursue the perceived emotional authenticity of flamenco; its air of exoticism and sensuality, and the fact that, by becoming familiar with its inner workings (especially cante), one can become an aficionado, and thus enter a unique and special world closed to others. Pretty heady stuff--Romanticism always is, especially to the young--and flamenco sure worked its magic on me back in the 1950s. Still hooked. A parallel situation evolved when Rock discovered Romanticism in the 1960s and early 1970s--think Led Zep and Stairway to Heaven and Kashmir; Neil Young and Cortez the Killer; Mountain and Theme from an Imaginary Western; Cream and Tales of Brave Ulysses and Those Were the Days, and the list goes on and on. runner
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Date May 3 2009 15:54:02
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