Flamenco and Middle-Class angst...

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Flamenco and Middle-Class angst...

I'm just listening to a programme about the 90th birthday of Pete Seeger, the American Folk legend and a history of his thoughts and performances.

Even though he sounds a very decent fellow, and the fact that I came from a generation who listened to him (I certainly didn't! ...I've never been a fan of that stuff!

), I can't help but feel that a lot of this "protest" stuff comes from folk who were bored with a secure Middle-Class background and wanted to spice things up a bit in their lives and if their venture didn't work out to their satisfaction, then they could at least run back to a comfortable home where Mommy would feed them and wash their clothes and Daddy would get them a job at The Company.

In a way, I feel the same about the foreign interest in Flamenco.

I think it's kinda divided into two parts, although there is room for all the "inbetweenies"

The ones who see it as a complex and very interesting music and approach it as a kind of a "new jazz", where it is possible to learn the techniques and participate in the "higher level" stuff at a cerebral/musical "jazz sentiment" level.

And others who crave "duende" and "passion" and torture

etc with only their own life experiences in High School in Ohio and England and Serbia etc to measure by....and nothing really to do with the past 1900's impoverished South of Spain to base it upon, but somehow feel they have an affinity with the sentiment?

A kind of Middle-Class angst?

"Mommy....I'm going to run away to the Circus!"

I have absolutely no idea where I am on this map, but I like the music a lot and it keeps drawing me back even though I leave it for a while.

So what are your thoughts?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 12:05:25

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

hello Ron,
I'll write now just shortly, Im just passing by

I think theres not really any difference in the sorrow of gitanos or finish forest man, nor any other human. The sorrow from hardships, mothers death or the joy of getting married or when our babies are born are universal. Theres nothing middle-class angst in the real emotions of a man.

Flamenco is not about singing or dancing or playing a guitar. They are all just ways of expressing, sharing and experiencing. The technique shouldnt be more important than the content. There are gitanos and also foreigners who tend to forget this and some who remember and show it well. Not everybody is a great artist.

I hope you understand some point from my short message.
-Aleksi

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 12:49:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to aleksi)

Good post Aleksi,

I do not mean to be cynical, although my post may come across to some people as so and I very much appreciate your reply.

I really am genuinely interested in folk's motivation.

Honest!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 13:01:01

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

I had a similar conversation to this when I was learning Brazilian samba, music of the favelas! How could we possibly relate to the poverty and deprivation that this music arose from? Of course we can't really, but we can still love it and try to play it as authentically as we can.

I think Aleksi's right that the big things in life are the same for all of us. Money doesn't necessarily guarantee good health or a happy family life. On the other hand there are some unhappinesses that might be considered a luxury. For example I've travelled a bit in Africa and I don't think I met anyone there who was worried about having an eating disorder.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 13:14:09

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:11:50

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 14:52:31

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

Well first off, how bad a person's problems are are relative to what that person has experienced. If you're not happy with something in your life you can take comfort in the fact that it could be worse, but it's not gonna make you happy.

There are people who are completely success oriented, doesn't matter what they do as long as they earn a lot of money and become successful they're happy, and those people are very lucky.

Others can really only find happiness in a certain passion or an obsession and they either stick with it all the way no matter how difficult their life becomes or they end up realizing that "life sucks and you can't have everything you want", and make it a hobby get a job they can live with. A teenager having the outlook of the latter can get really frustrated, I think that's where the rebellion starts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 15:08:23

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

I was drawn to Flamenco—it never really seemed like a choice to me. Something about it is compelling and almost irresistible. I had little opportunity to hear it and learn how to play it so I eventually gave up. Even so I practiced daily for a year and a half before quitting. Twenty years later I searched the internet—just typed “flamenco” into Google and found this forum and tons of Youtube videos. It was enough to motivate me to start pursuing flamenco again. Sure it’s flashy and can be a high brow pursuit—like jazz—but what I’ve read on this forum has directed me and kept me grounded in the traditions of flamenco (i. e., palos, chord progressions, compas, etc.).

I am not surprised that a lot of the people on this forum have complicated jobs or advanced degrees. People need a certain level of stimulation and they will go out of their way to find it. Flamenco is complex enough to be attractive to these people, but to be good at it requires a huge investment of time over a period of years. I don’t consider people dilettantes (or “bored and middle class” as you put it) for becoming involved in flamenco and not sticking with it. Nylon stringed guitar is just too damn hard! I wish it had the same learning curve as electric guitar.

I don’t really know where I am on the map either regarding the categories you set up, but listening, learning and practicing is enough for me—and I don’t think it has to be more than this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 15:36:36

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

Well it should be a clue that Seeger charged $250 to go to his birthday party..my middle aged ex-hippy neighbor went to it.
Apart from that though, everyone has pain, even my cat gets depressed, and it has the most comfortable life you could probably imagine. Artists always have pain, if not then they are not a true artist, because you could always be better than you are, and it's that feeling of inadequacy that drives you forward. That's why people like Sedlak, etc are not artists because they get to a certain (low) level and believe that they have already accomplished all they need to.
Middle class or not it makes no difference, plenty of great Flamenco artists come from middle class backgrounds. Most Flamenco is not about poverty or even suffering...most of the letras that I know, (apart from Carceleras and stuff like that) are about relationships, which everyone has. And many are playful or even optimistic.
If we were talking about hip-hop, that would be a different story

...I had to give up my career as an MC in high school because that really didn't make sense...lol ditto being a blues singer. But I have always needed a way to express myself through music. Now that I've found Flamenco, it's like Pgh said, I just can't put down the ****ing guitar. I dont have a choice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 16:40:09

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

I think you're all ridiculous.

I agree with John Cage and Arnold Schoenberg, it's ridiculous to believe that music expresses anything other than music.

Keep your extramusical associations.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 17:31:35

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

I agree with John Cage and Arnold Schoenberg, it's ridiculous to believe that music expresses anything other than music.

We are talking about an art form that encompasses not just musical tones but also dance and songs with lyrics. Even if you just play guitar, this is all part of the "gestalt" of Flamenco.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 18:04:12

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

Interestingly it is always the Non-Spanish people (and normally they dont do flamenco in any way) that turn it against you that you, as a non-spaniard, are doing flamenco. As if there is a license to make flamenco

These thoughts are WAY off. If its flamenco, its flamenco, no matter from whom it comes. The only thing that is really frustrating, and criticable, is that there is too few flamenco outside spain. This affects the level of flamenco done.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 2:42:27

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to XXX)

reason i took up flamenco is cause i saw tomatito on the bbc.
i was like "whoah" the sounds he's getting out of that guitar, the complexity of the movement's the whole ryhtmical drive.

spanish guitar, i had heard before that sounded very "noisy" and "garish" to some extent, this was pure musical joy to hear and watch.

i started getting cd's of older flamenco guitarists, hearing sabicas, nino ricardo and the other greats of the golden age really kept my intrest.

for me its not a hobby but a way to try and express myself, i like the social aspect of it aswell. i will proably never fully understand what it means to be "flamenco" because i did not grow up in the enviroment of its birth, but i strive to get "that sound" that grito, rajo sound and not to sound like some spanishy type noodling on a classical guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 3:38:10

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Interestingly it is always the Non-Spanish people (and normally they dont do flamenco in any way) that turn it against you that you, as a non-spaniard, are doing flamenco. As if there is a license to make flamenco

i think this is in every sphere of ethno-centric human activities,
i got this from chinese and oriental people that i will never fully understand kung fu and its merits nor will i be accepted as a master or competent person in these arts.

i called an oriental practitioners bluff on this and challenged him to "touch hands" to test skill, in the end i submitted him by a choke. he then turned around and said i didnt use kung fu, i said there are chokes in kung fu and he then went off in a huff cause he lost face in front of his other oriental friends.

i regretted it in later years, but i was younger and had a bigger chip on my shoulder.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 3:44:21

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to henrym3483)

We did a rumba show at a golf club once (haven't a thing against such a crown but generally no clue about Spanish music or flamenco there). One of the waiters asked each of us if we were Spanish and laughed when all but one said no. I thought he'd be disappointed if I had told him the Gypsy Kings are from France.

Then the chubby little dork started asking "Where's Speedy Gonzales?" over and over so I asked him where Fatty McButterpants was. He didn't get it

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 4:22:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

Interesting post..

quote:

In a way, I feel the same about the foreign interest in Flamenco.

I think it's kinda divided into two parts, although there is room for all the "inbetweenies"

The ones who see it as a complex and very interesting music and approach it as a kind of a "new jazz", where it is possible to learn the techniques and participate in the "higher level" stuff at a cerebral/musical "jazz sentiment" level.

And others who crave "duende" and "passion" and torture etc with only their own life experiences in High School in Ohio and England and Serbia etc to measure by....and nothing really to do with the past 1900's impoverished South of Spain to base it upon, but somehow feel they have an affinity with the sentiment?

A kind of Middle-Class angst?

"Mommy....I'm going to run away to the Circus!"

Really when u think about it our circumstances arent different from a young non-experienced person in Spain wanting to get involved in flamenco but is not from the south...or have any flamenco in his familly or cant actualy relate to 1900's impoverished South of Spain since he wasent born ..

they are in Spain but they still have to get out of the house and go and learn it just like us

none of them get borned into it and they all can relate to 1900's suffering just as much as any of us who werent born back then..Even if they get borned in the Montoya familly, they still know absoluteley nothing about duende, compas, aire or pain of the 1900 until they start learn it and start training for it ...no different to us... their understanding of subjects like love, pain, death are are the same as anywhere in the world..

the only difference is its their native language ( wich they had to learn as kids also) and the travel smaller distances to get to practice, they have to learn their history out of books just like us, they have to practice like beginners just like us, and slowly develop aire/ understanding/confidence etc..

thats about it..the rest its all achivable wherever you are, knowledge, aire, understanding etc..

so in the end our categories arent that different to anyone in spain imo, we probably all love flamenco and enjoy it for the same reasons anyone in spain does...we just might not have the aquired vocabulary or confidence to expres it yet, but the esence is the same, feelings are the same whatever language u speak or wherever you are born..

when u love something you love it thats it, thats all that matters, there are many different reasons someone loves something...all valid, (weather you have the fancy profound words to explain why or not) ...the rest are just litlle mental barriers we (outsiders) or others impose on ourselfs....if you allow them

"aire" and "duende" is not an exclusive genetic spanish cell..is something someone learns or develops over years or practice and study...whatever his native tongue is..

when i think of words like "authentic" i think of advertising gimmics, that dosent really say anything...its like when you got nothing else to add or nothing to make your product stand up above the rest you resort to descriptions like " authentic" "genuine" "traditional" but this descriptions dont acctualy say anything about the quality of the product or why its better, its like a quic eazy way out....really we all know there is no autentic and non authentic, or if there is we more than anyone should know that this type of descriptions are missleading ..

what is the first question all of us get asked everytime we show up for a gig ? does the answer to that really give any kind of fair or acurate indication to our skill or experience in comparesment to for example Manuel Gonzales..a spanish emigrant who has been studying 3 years...or plays part time at parties just for fun ...the general public might not know ...you could have been playing for Farruquito in spain ...as far as they are concerned...Manuel will always be better or more "authentic"

theres enough missconceptions and uninformed restraints (theres nothing we can do about) placed on us coming from general uninformed public without us having to help and place anymore on ourselfs..

thats why i refuse to think in terms like..them (spanish) and us (outsiders)

i keep it simple for myself...good and bad

everyone doing flamenco inside or outise spain is a "flamenco" to me, different skills and levels but that depends on the individual not the place of birth

however others might see "me" its impossible for me consider myself a guest or outsider to the only thing i have spent half of my life studying and pursuing and beeing involved in and sorrounded by and loved/ if i did i would just do it for their benefit because i dont feel it..i dont allow "others" view of me or limitations they chose to place on themselfs affect the way i view myself

Sorry long post

i gues the subject is interesting to me, i always feel a litlle bad for people who allow themselfs to feel like second class citizens into the one thing they love and have spent a lifetime doing based only on litlle unchangeble details or missguided versions of respect, outside opinions...whatever, sounds like an exausting unsatifying way to view yourself

there are many realities out there and they are all designed by the individuals who live in them

in theory with enough work you "could" one day play as good or better than Tomatio and know as much as him or anyone...but you will still be from outside spain...so are you going to let the "spain" thing keep you out all your life ? how many years will it take for you to allow yourself to feel like you arent a guest, like u arent copying flamenco but rather doing it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 7:05:56

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

none of them get borned into it and they all can relate to 1900's suffering just as much as any of us who werent born back then..

Yeah, I was just going to post that. The only thing that matters, IMO, is being able to recognize the melodies and verse. I'm mean appreciating the art and not necessarily analyzing it for classification. Sometimes the references come from outside of flamenco culture (boleros, copla, etc.), and that's where foreign aficionados are at a real disadvantage.

Obviously, a big part of the charm is the high standard of quality of a music performed on the fly: no sight-reading, no charts, no music theory... sometimes no teeth!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 7:53:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14826
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

I think you're all ridiculous.

I agree with John Cage and Arnold Schoenberg, it's ridiculous to believe that music expresses anything other than music.

Keep your extramusical associations.

But their music sucks!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 9:16:31

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

past 1900's impoverished South of Spain

i don't think andalucia has or had a monopoly on poverty.... though maybe the sort of poverty that was the norm for huge sections of most poplulations in the 1800's persisted longer in spain than in other countries.... so it's more the memories of grandparents there than of great grandparents.... but that is a bit of a guess

but there are for sure those people who take up flamenco not so much because the music/dance moves them, but through some sort of romantic fantasy about spain and gypsies with roses between their teeth.... they don't usually stick with their guitar lessons 'cos they don't practise, and they never get much beyond the beginners dance class (though unfortunately dance classes often seem to work so that after a year in beginners they become elementary or intermediate regardless of ability, and after another year they are intermediate or advanced or whatever....

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 13:04:39

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

I think the "middle-class angst" that Ron M posits is our old friend Romanticism--the ball that Jean-Jacques Rousseau helped start rolling in the 18th century. Ever since then, each generation has discovered and been discovered by Romanticism--it's happened that, first, Spain several times, then flamenco several times now, have been magnets drawing non-Spaniards south of the Pyrenees. Think Glinka, Rimsky-Korsakov, Bizet, Debussy, Ravel, Chabrier, and then later, even Spaniards like de Falla and Lorca to Andalusia and its gitanos.

What's at work? Dissatisfaction with the banality, familiarity, ordinariness of one's everyday culture. And then the availability of time and money to pursue the perceived emotional authenticity of flamenco; its air of exoticism and sensuality, and the fact that, by becoming familiar with its inner workings (especially cante), one can become an aficionado, and thus enter a unique and special world closed to others. Pretty heady stuff--Romanticism always is, especially to the young--and flamenco sure worked its magic on me back in the 1950s. Still hooked.

A parallel situation evolved when Rock discovered Romanticism in the 1960s and early 1970s--think Led Zep and Stairway to Heaven and Kashmir; Neil Young and Cortez the Killer; Mountain and Theme from an Imaginary Western; Cream and Tales of Brave Ulysses and Those Were the Days, and the list goes on and on.

runner

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 15:54:02

newstringjunkie

Posts: 21
Joined: Mar. 29 2009

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

Well... if The reason to play a musical instrument were to stay out of a McJob I'd chosen electrical guitar and a couple of chords et voilà I'd be gigging in no time.

To be able to get lost in the music takes more effort to let go of everyday worries no matter how mundane they seem in the grand scheme of things than to live "an artist must suffer"kind of life. And as someone else said it, emotions are universal, especially the whole playing field of love and relationships et voilà plenty of suffering for the ones who thrive on it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2009 20:33:33

ddk

Posts: 155
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
From: California

RE: Flamenco and Middle-Class angst... (in reply to Ron.M)

This is an interesting thread, but in the end, I think you either feel Flamenco or you don't. There are plenty of impoverished people around the world that can't relate to flamenco. And did PdL grow up in miserable circumstances? I doubt it. Some folks are just born with more sensitivity than others. They usually become musicians, dancers, artists, writers, etc...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2009 12:10:27