Glue

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massa

Posts: 10
Joined: Aug. 19 2008

Glue

Hi. i want know what is the best glue for different parts of the guitar.

i think hide glue{animal glue} is the best for braces and inside the box but what about bridge ,fingerboard and body.....is that good use hide glue for all.
thankyou.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2009 12:48:00

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Glue (in reply to massa)

Hy massa

Hideglue is the glue that was used for centuries on stringed instruments and the glue has proven to be good. Hideglue hardens like glass and due to it's very low damping properties it is perfectly suited for the construction of instruments. Hideglue has several advantages compared to more modern kind of glues. Glue joints can be disassembled with the use of heat. This is important for the repairabilty of the instrument. Hideglue is totally natural and it doesn't contain chemical components. The only disadvantage of hideglue is the fact, that it is a granulate that must be heated to about 60° celsius in order to work fine. Even the working surface should be heated in order to enlarge the open time of the glue, otherwise the glue sets faster than you are able to cramp the parts.
Today i'm using a special fish glue which is also used for piano making. In spite of hide glue it is already liquid and it it does not require to be heated. The open time is neither too short nor too long so it works perfectly for guitarmaking. The properties of the fish glue is similar to hide glue. It hardens to a glass like material and it allows disassembly as well. Romanillos is working with this kind of fish glue as well.
Some luthiers use titebond for everything. Allthough Titebond hardens better than normal white glues, it is still a chemical glue which i consider to be inferior. I personally don't use any white glue on my guitars.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2009 13:16:15

Aadi

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 30 2009

RE: Glue (in reply to massa)

I have built electrics using nothing but Titebond; no problems. For classical building I've been using LMI's polyvinyl glue and have no complaints. I will probably continue using this glue. It sets quickly (but not too quickly) and dries clear and hard. I've never used hide glue because I don't see the benefits as outweighing the costs and don't want to deal with the hassle.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2009 15:10:25

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Glue (in reply to massa)

i use original titebond for every thing perfect for the job. even comes apart when heated. so is perfect. I personally dont like animal glue its just too messy for me. and the fact you have to keep it heated. when working 10 hour days that can get costly especially as i like to make sure ive always got something to glue!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2009 23:05:29

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: Glue (in reply to massa)

I use a fish glue I found online, save for the rosette, as Tom Nuñez (thanks, Tom) told me it can stain around the edges. Otherwise, works nicely. I like the idea of a hard, resonant surface vs. a more pliable one, but that could just be another 'tradition'...

Aadi; Are you using LMI's glue for the rosette, too? All good?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2009 5:48:53

Aadi

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 30 2009

RE: Glue (in reply to Ramón)

LMI glue was the only glue I used on my Hauser. If it's staining of the rosette environs you're worried about, there's no cause for concern with the LMI glue. It doesn't discolor wood and is clear when dry. I had some squeeze-out from gluing the back that I couldn't reach with tools to remove, but the glue is so inconspicuous when dry that it's not a big deal. It bothers me that it's there, but one needs a flashlight and a sense of purpose to find it.

The main advantage I see in animal glue is its ease of disassembly, which is very helpful with violin-family instruments whose plates will need to be removed and reattached in the future. But removing and reattaching a guitar's plates is a significantly more drastic, complicated, and risky endeavor even if the glue comes apart cleanly and easily. I'd rather build a durable guitar with no expectation of future disassembly. If its plates later need to be removed, I will pronounce the guitar dead and donate its corpse to science.

As for tradition, hide glue is traditional only because it was traditionally the only glue available. Glue is a tool and, like any other tool, is subject to improvement over time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2009 10:17:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Glue (in reply to massa)

quote:

As for tradition, hide glue is traditional only because it was traditionally the only glue available. Glue is a tool and, like any other tool, is subject to improvement over time.

I totally disagree and your statemnet is one of these "easy" ones. So what are the improvements besides being easyer?

Hot hide glue, if used used correctly is superior to any of the glues mentioned in this thread. But its easyer and faster to use a bottle of Titebond/fish glue/Lmi glue.

I use Hot hide glue for some things and titebond for others. I would like to use hot hide glue on the whole guitar, but I find that gluing the back and the bindings/purfling with hot hide glue to be a disaster.

I´m not a glue religious builder (some are) and I use what serves me and I know that you can build very nice instruments with commercial glues, but it doesnt mean that traditional glue is inferior. Many socalled improvements are steps backward.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2009 1:23:04

Aadi

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 30 2009

RE: Glue (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I agree that hide glue definitely has an advantage, that it can be removed easily, it's just that I don't presently value that enough to stop using synthetic glue. I don't see what else I would gain by switching. When choosing a glue, I want it to allow sufficient open time for the work I'm doing, I want to be able to clean up its squeeze-out, I want it to set quickly and cure hard, I want it to soften with heat, and I want it to be strong enough to survive the necessary tension. I get all of that with synthetic glue, at room temperature too. That's why I think synthetic glue is an improvement--it performs the necessary function more easily.

But I have always used synthetic glues and I lack the other perspective. However, I'm always interested in making my next guitar better than the last one (and you certainly build finer guitars than I do), so tell me, why do you consider hide glue superior? Persuade me to invest in a glue pot

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2009 10:15:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Glue (in reply to Aadi)

Aadi,
I understand your thoughts, but ease of use doesnt mean better performance or improvement. I use Titebond on most joints and I use it for the same reason that you describe.

Hot hide glue has the following advantages: Better acoustics (All plastic glues are plastic!!!), You can reglue without taking a piece of by simply heating and adding a little bit of glue. used correctly it has a better bonding strength on some joints, especially the ones where you cannot use clamps. Hot hide glue has the property of clamping things together when drying. This is especially noticeable when gluing the Tentellones (peones) They simply get glued to the top and side with a lot stronger pressure. This "clamping" effect is actually so strong that if you use a domed top and 90 degrees tentellones, you can see the imprent of the tentellones on the outside of the top and it will be slightly deformed. So you´ll have to shape your tentellones to the top (you should anyway) or build flat.
This glue joint (Top to sides) Is very important IMO.

You dont have to invest in a glue pot and you dont have to use hot hide glue in order to make good guitars, I just felt your first statement to be far out.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 0:16:39

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Glue (in reply to massa)

quote:

ORIGINAL: massa

Hi. i want know what is the best glue for different parts of the guitar.

i think hide glue{animal glue} is the best for braces and inside the box but what about bridge ,fingerboard and body.....is that good use hide glue for all.
thankyou.

I use LMI's white builders glue for all of my construction phase. My tops are glued with a certain technique that allows the fan braces to be solid but not show so much imprint on thin tops. The way I do this is to give the top inside, three coats of very thin shellac, cut about 11 to 1 with alcohol, and then glue the fan braces onto the top by mashing out the glue by hand and then gluing the braces with just enough clamping pressure to secure the Joint; no more.

This protects the top a little from the water based glue and gives a solid glue base with the LMI white glue.

The sound is not compromised, as my reputation is at stake building top flamenco guitars. The real secret is in the technique, more than the glue you use. Finding the proper way to apply and use it is the main answer to building top quality guitars. It's really all in the technique with any acceptable gluing process.

Manuel Reyes has to be using hide glue for this but there are alternative glues to use that work well.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2009 6:22:21

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Glue (in reply to massa)

Aadi, I don't mind what glue others use but I firmly believe that hide glue is acoustically better for guitar making. Try it. One of the advantages that Anders doesn't mention is the fast grab of hide glue. It is so fast that here in Granada we glue the scarf joint on the neck with just one clamp. If the joint is made right, the wood is warmed and the glue is at the right consistency you put the two pieces together and rub with a bit of pressure and then immediately apply the clamp. Now that is an advantage. I would like to clear up a misunderstanding about hide glue also. Although you can reglue as Anders says by adding glue and heat to a failed joint or if it cools off before you get it together you CAN NOT dissemble a hide glue joint easily. Opening a joint requires getting heat and moisture into the joint and that can be very difficult. Especially if there is no glue-filled gap. Titebond and similar glues can be softened by heat alone and opened that way. I have experimented with top joints held in front of a heat source and my experience confirms this. Now, please be aware that a joint must be perfect for the above to be true. That is another advantage to hide glue, it forces you to see the imperfections in the typical wood working joint because it fails (or deforms in the case of thin pieces of wood). A loose joint glued with hide glue is very easy to dissemble with force or heat and water. It might also fail in a short time due to moisture getting in. It is also extremely important to be very clean and keep the surfaces freshly prepared and not touch them and to heat the pieces before (or after in some cases) and to use the glue in a relatively liquid consistency. So the truth is that unless you get some good training and lots of practice you are better off using plastic resin glues. They will still hold if the joint is not perfect and they don't require so much technique to use. Good luck, John Ray, Granada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2009 23:00:02