Guitar Purchase Help

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polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

Guitar Purchase Help

I am currently playing flamenco on an Alvarez AC60S classical. I would like to get a flamenco guitar. I played the entry level Yamaha y'all seem to like so much at a Sam Ash, but it sounded more like a classical guitar. I want crisp, bright, vibrant! It seems the advice on this board is don't get a mid priced guitar. Either get the Yamaha or a $5000 guitar. Why is that?

I can get a Manuel Rodriguez FF Sabicas for $800 with case after shipping on eBay (using live.com discount). New it's close to $1300. Does anyone have opinions on this guitar? A few people had negative things to say about MR in the Luthier forum. I guess if it's sold in big box online retailers it's crap? Help! Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 10:31:26

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

quote:

It seems the advice on this board is don't get a mid priced guitar. Either get the Yamaha or a $5000 guitar.

I used to think the same thing (although realistically, you can get a luthier guitar for significantly less than $5000). Nowadays I'm singing a different tune. I say if you're willing to step up to a student model from a respectable luthier's shop then more often than not you'll end up happy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 10:41:35

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

There are good mid-priced options but the trouble is finding the GOOD ones. I give the Yamaha high marks only because it is inexpensive and more consistent in its quality. This makes it a better value if you are on a tight budget, if you don't have an opportunity to play many guitars, if you must buy from a remote vendor, if you don't know what good tone sounds like, or if you're not certain that you will continue to travel down flamenco road.

For $800, I would call Tom at La Falseta (click on that link) and see what he can offer you. He should have a good Navarro in stock.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 12:31:26

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to ChiyoDad)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiyoDad
For $800, I would call Tom at La Falseta (click on that link) and see what he can offer you. He should have a good Navarro in stock.

$600 if you are okay with traditional peg tuners!

http://www.lafalseta.com/Previously_Owned.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 12:39:26

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to GuitarVlog)

I don't want traditional peg tuners, I know that. Also, that guitar is made of cedar and cypress, and some weird fingerboard wood which to me screams classical. I want the standard cypress/spruce and ebony fingerboard. I have an okay budget, but I don't want to go all out on this because I have to spread my money evenly among all my instruments (keys, trumpet, bass, electric guitar, drums). I would like to spend under a grand. I am still not hearing anything pro or con with Manuel Rodriguez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 12:59:32

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

The fingerboard wood has nothing to do with it being a classical or flamenco. There's no rule that says a flamenco should have this and a classical should have that. You don't have many options under $1000.00 that are IMO, actually worth the price. I don't like Manuel Rodriguez guitars or most in this price range. Look into an Aparicio or a Lucida Picado. I've heard some decent things about these but I haven't tried one myself. You can get a spruce top student Navarro for $1150.00. Also, search ebay. From time to time there are pretty good deals there on second hand instruments.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 14:03:38

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

quote:

ORIGINAL: polishcomedy
Also, that guitar is made of cedar and cypress, and some weird fingerboard wood which to me screams classical. I want the standard cypress/spruce and ebony fingerboard.

Cedar is just as good as spruce for tops on either flamenco or classic. You just have to know how to build with it. Don't listen to the pronouncements from the "experts" who have never built a guitar. There are no woods that "scream classical" just as there are none that "scream flamenco".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 15:01:32

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to TANúñez)

Here's a Lucida Artista 797 Picado Flamenco for $825, which includes case and shipping:

http://www.olddavy.com/lucida/l797.html#

Here's an Aparicio AA 90 F with no case and must be shipped internationally to the U.S. from the U.K. (so I don't know what shipping cost is) for a base price of $863.86:

http://www.classical-guitars-plus.co.uk/productfamily.php/family__2747__Aparicio+AA+90+F+Flamenco+Guitar

The cheapest retailer I saw in the states sells it for $1259 with free shipping:

http://www.apollosaxes.com/Aparicio-Flamenco-Guitar_2

A used "Reyes" Navarro just sold on eBay for $1275 with case and shipping.

Are all these models I mentioned superior to the Manuel Rodriguez? What is it about the MR you do not like?

This is the one I was looking at: http://www.music123.com/Rodriguez-FF-Flamenco-Sabicas-Classical-Guitar-514333-i1373653.Music123

Like I said, I can get it with a case and shipping for $800 used.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 15:20:14

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

quote:

ORIGINAL: polishcomedy
Also, that guitar is made of cedar and cypress, and some weird fingerboard wood which to me screams classical. I want the standard cypress/spruce and ebony fingerboard. I have an okay budget, but I don't want to go all out on this because I have to spread my money evenly among all my instruments (keys, trumpet, bass, electric guitar, drums).

In that case, just buy the Rodriguez and be happy. The customer is always right.

Tom, if you have a good deal on a negra from Pancho that has cocobolo backs and sides, let me know. I just love flamencas that scream classical.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 15:21:58

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

Actually isn't cocobolo nearly as hard as ebony? I thought it was the hardest of the rosewoods.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 15:54:58

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

I'm not right, I'm just trying to sort out the mess. I just haven't found what the reasons are for not getting the Rodriguez. I don't care either way. I'm not leaning toward the Rodriguez. I just feel there's a chance to get one right now at a decent price.

Is the Lucida Artista 797 the better way to go? Or should I spend the extra and get the Aparicio AA90F? Or something entirely different? Argh, I'm trying to make a decision soon, but there are so few resources and even less local help. The local music shops don't even know what flamenco is and they only carry the cheapie Yamaha so playing an instrument before buying is out of the question.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 16:05:55

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

The M. Rodriguez' that I played had too much of a classical tone. Very clean, very high action, one model was a laminate back and sides and just not punchy enough for my tastes. The best thing you can do if you have an opportunity to get one at a good price is to take it for a test drive. If YOU like it, that's all that really matters regardless of what other people think of it. Myself included.

I think Navarro gives you a lot for the price. Sanchis Lopez' entry model, the 2F is very good but they have gone up in price a little to around $1900.00. My friend got the Aparicio 90F for giging and he's happy with it considering what he paid for it. It suits the purpose.

Let your hands and ears be the judge. Where are you at? maybe I know someone in your area.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 17:37:01

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to TANúñez)

Thanks for the help, Tom. I've actually been reviewing a lot of models, and a lot of people have great things to say about the Lucida Artista 797, saying it's an excellent instrument comparable to models up to about the $1500 range. What I've noticed is they have almost doubled in price since a few years ago. That one site I posted selling them is the only one I found who had them, so hopefully they still have them. I'm in Orlando. There is a Spanish restaurant in town called Ceviche where they have live flamenco music and dancing 5 nights a week. I saw them once and they were great, but both guitarists were using acoustic/electrics cutaway models. How do you feel about those? I figure the purist approach would be to mic a full body. As of right now the Lucida is looking pretty appetizing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 18:12:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

One of the biggest problems with production (factory) guitars, is that you cannot rely on what someone says about a certain mark or model. Consistency is simply to bad. One might have one which is really good and another one that is a 100% potato....

One of the best Valeriano Bernals I have tried is the one Simon (Escribano) has. Its the cheapest entry model and its better than some 3000,-€ Bernals that I have tried. But this doest mean that this particular model is good because I´ve tried some other low end Bernals that were bad.

So if you buy a production guitar, you have two options. Test it before buying or buy it from someone who you trust. I´m sure that Tom from La Falseta wont send you a potato.

If not, buy a good luthier made guitar from someone you trust.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2009 23:59:55

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thats good advice. I have been selling guitars for along time and almost everyone is looking for good instruments at this price level. For me there are 2 reliable choices
1. Valeriano Bernal - modelo Prodigio. It's retail is around 900 euros. It has a cedar top and is much more punchy than some of the higher priced cyprus/pine models. Its the low end model thats actually produced in the Bernal workshop rather than bought in from valencia with a label stuck in it.

2. Miguel Angel Lopez - from Bellido in Granada.
The sycamore version retails around 550 euros and the cyprus around 800.
They are amazing value for money and frankly sound better than most 2000 euro plus instruments. Every single person who I sold one to has been overjoyed with these instruments.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2009 1:53:16

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to kovachian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kovachian

Actually isn't cocobolo nearly as hard as ebony? I thought it was the hardest of the rosewoods.

I have a big plank of it that I'm going to resaw on the next warm day. It's not as hard as ebony. I'd say the hardness is about the same as East Indian Rosewood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2009 6:23:15

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

What do you guys think of this Navarro?

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Francisco-Navarro-Flamenco-Guitar-German-Spruce-NR_W0QQitemZ230334643609QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item230334643609&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A15|39%3A1|240%3A1318

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2009 14:30:37

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

He says you have a 24-hr approval period. Try to bid on it. If you win it and don't like it, return it.

I don't like the seller though. Even if he says the guitar is new, it's a likely assumption that he's not an authorized dealer. If the guitar doesn't go up enough in price, he closes the auction early and says he found a local buyer. He also sends unsolicited PMs through eBay asking bidders to increase their bids ... and then he stills closes the auction early when it doesn't get to a level that he wants. Lousy way to sell on eBay but it protects his feedback rating since you can't leave negative feedback without a transaction.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2009 14:43:27

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to ChiyoDad)

I take it you've dealt with him before?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2009 15:19:28

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

Probably 5-6 auctions. All were ended early. Some were re-listed for two days and then ended early again.

I'm sure he's got some satisfied customers who overpaid.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2009 15:47:40

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to ChiyoDad)

I'm sure you're right. He has listed on the auction,

"this particular guitar has a Solid German Spruce Top Upgrade worth an additional $300!"

However, I found a seller online, and the upgrade is only $150. The guy didn't say he paid that, but he says it's "worth" it. Tricky wording. I emailed him and called him out on it and got nothing back.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 1 2009 23:40:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

yamaha classical with added tap plate-$99
yamaha flamenco-$300
Cordoba flamencos $500-$1200
Alhambra 7F-$800
Vicente Sanchis-$1500
Hermanos Sanchis lopez 2F-$1900
Hermanos Sanchis lopez Solea-$2200
Hermanos Sanchis lopez 1f-$3000
Salvador Castillo -$3500-$4000(EDIT $2500...good deal!)
used Conde/Esteso-$4000-$8500
used Gerundino- $8000
used Reyes jr-$8000-$10,000
used Reyes-$15000-$30,000!

That is a list of guitars low to high that I have actually played and recommend depending on your price range, and the general price range you should expect to pay for one. As you can tell I have a preference for instruments in the high-mid range (Hermanos Sanchis lopez) to low-high (Conde/esteso). Of all the instruments, if i had to choose ONE it would be a Conde/esteso blanca in the $5000 range. The more expensive ones are more for collection, and the lower end instruments seriously lack in the treble response for solo concert playing. I would accept ANY instrument above for accompanying.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2009 10:37:07

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo's list looks yummy. I have never tried a Reyes jr. You can definitely get a Salvador Castillo for less than Ricardo's guess. If you use these guys in Kansas http://www.flamencokc.com/ it will cost you $2500.00 plus shipping for a blanca and about $500.00 less if you deal with Salvador directly

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2009 6:08:58

polishcomedy

Posts: 66
Joined: Feb. 7 2009
From: Orlando

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to ChiyoDad)

ChiyoDad, I ended up getting the Navarro from that guy on eBay. After the live.com discount I got it for just about $1000 even. This is the Flamenco-1 Model with the German Spruce top upgrade (1700 base plus 150 = $1850). I had no trouble with the purchase, and the initial auction was not Buy it Now, but he made it Buy it Now for me. This was a recent email he sent in response to me questioning him on the "new" condition of the guitar:

I am Navarros smallest dealer and the guitar is new. You are the 1st owner and you have a full warrenty honored through Memorial Music in Houston TX. located at 12748 Memorial Dr. 77024. You can give them a call @ 713-461-1060 and confirm this with Ron Hudson, the owner and the guy who brings all of Navarros guitars to the US and distrubute and sell at the store.
Better deal than you thought! I'll stay in touch until guitar is delivered and you let me know you are happy with it. I know you will be pleasantly surprised.
Thanks,
Ben

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2009 15:03:28

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to chapman_g)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chapman_g

Ricardo's list looks yummy. I have never tried a Reyes jr. You can definitely get a Salvador Castillo for less than Ricardo's guess. If you use these guys in Kansas http://www.flamencokc.com/ it will cost you $2500.00 plus shipping for a blanca and about $500.00 less if you deal with Salvador directly

Just so you know. There is an import duty of around 50% on guitars made in the US going into Mexico. If it weren't for this outrageous import duty Shelton-Farretta would have sold many guitars in Mexico to students of our patron the late Manuel Lopez-Ramos. I encourage you to think about this before buying a Mexican guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2009 15:36:18

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to jshelton5040)

John,
I did not know that. And I thank you for that information. So this North American Free Trade Agreement does not cut both ways then? They can sell their instruments here with no duties below $3000.00 but if you are selling to them there is a whopping 50% duty, is that correct?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2009 16:37:16

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to polishcomedy)

Wait a minute, what the fack? Did our government piss off the Mexican government somehow? When did they start imposing this tarriff?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2009 16:48:51

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Guitar Purchase Help (in reply to chapman_g)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chapman_g

John,
I did not know that. And I thank you for that information. So this North American Free Trade Agreement does not cut both ways then? They can sell their instruments here with no duties below $3000.00 but if you are selling to them there is a whopping 50% duty, is that correct?

I don't know what the duty is coming into the U.S. but I suspect it's nowhere near the 50% (actually I think it's currently about 53%) charged by Mexico. So much for fair trade. A few customers from Mexico still buy guitars from us but they usually find ways of getting by customs (hint..it involves paying off certain officials). I wouldn't write about this except I really dislike protectionism which seems like it only hurts the little guy or small businesses like ours.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 5 2009 6:23:12