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This is only my second post here. Hope I am asking this in right forum?
I am complete beginner. I love Flamenco and want to try and learn getting into it. I I admit I have sort of picked up the guitar in past and strummed chords....but all of that is alien to what I am seeing Flamenco artists do with their guitars. And that includes the very bascis like how they (which is of course Classical too) play the strings with right hand. So I wonder if you can help me with the confusion I presently have:
Please see this video: I am trying to understand the movements of the Phyrigian E Dominant 'Flamenco' scale, but I see that his right hand he uses his fingers on the strings (I always used my thumb, and even then was crap with scales. very slow with thumb!). So this is totally new! Now, in another video where the teacher shows close up how top use finger, he rests thumb on bottom string, and used the three fingers on top threee strings, and thumb for the bottom two or three. Yet when you see this video, the guitarist uses his fingers all ways to the bottom strings. So I am fonfused. Why does one teacher suggest thumb is for bottom strings and fingers for top, when this guitarist uses fingers for all strings as he explores the scale?
Instructional video on improvising on the Flamenco Scale
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
i would say if you're a complete beginner, you should forget flamenco for now, because even the simplest flamenco is non-standard from everything else technique-wise... first you should get to know your instrument and train your fingers to move independently, learn chords, practice arpeggios and scales... you can find several lessons on the net, stick to the most basic stuff, doing p a m i p i m a (hope you know what this means) and the same thing while alternating P on bass strings, practicing free strokes with i-m, then when you're comfortable with these techniques then you can try some flamenco...
also i may be wrong, so let's wait for a real teacher to show up and maybe he'll be on a different opinion :) either way, be aware that it takes years to sound just okay on the guitar... also while practicing, make sure you're keeping the rhythm as it's the most important of all...if you sound bad while keeping the rhythm is much better than sounding good and being out of rhythm, that's a major offense in flamenco!
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
aint got the luxury of years. I am already 53! And I really just for now focusin on this scale need to know if it is alright to use fingers all way to the bottom string? And if so how about when other teachers show the use of THUMB on bottom three and FINGERS on top three. Tghis is confusion. If I get an OK it is OK to use fingers all way to the bottom styring when practising this phrygian scale then I can get cracking on it
As for rythym, for me I feel I need to understand how to move fingers before i worry too much , but of course i dig the importance of it
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
you're right... yes, it's ok to use all fingers everywhere, it really depends on the composition itself and the tone you're trying to get...
when you play a scale run using picado (i-m fingers) then you go all the way to bottom...but also you can use the thumb on many occasions on the higher strings...
so essentially yes, you're given a green light to try anything you want :) i think the 3 upper vs 3 lower strings distinction is something they teach you when you first go to study classical guitar...
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
That sounds good But I still need to ask questions
Now, when I am moving string to string is it one finger per string, or it can be more than one, even two fingers? Obviously i need to learn how to do this. This way of using fingers on strings is very alien to me. I want to get my head round it, and also to gain speed and fluency..............So I need to know technique to do this
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
when doing an arpeggio you usually go one string per finger, but sometimes it's 1-2-3 strings for the thumb and one each for the rest...don't let this confuse you though, you'll get used to it...
when playing single notes on the strings, there are no rules, you play as many notes as needed on each string and you'll have to get used to alternating your i-m fingers while doing that...sometimes it also matters which finger you start with, but most notations have fingering that helps you...
ask any questions you want, that's part of what the foro is for :)
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
quote:
ORIGINAL: duwen
aint got the luxury of years. I am already 53! And I really just for now focusin on this scale need to know if it is alright to use fingers all way to the bottom string? And if so how about when other teachers show the use of THUMB on bottom three and FINGERS on top three. Tghis is confusion. If I get an OK it is OK to use fingers all way to the bottom styring when practising this phrygian scale then I can get cracking on it
As for rythym, for me I feel I need to understand how to move fingers before i worry too much , but of course i dig the importance of it
Simply put, you use which ever technique is REQUIRED to execute a SPECIFIC musical passage. In flamenco musical passages are called "FALSETAS". Running a scale with any name need not have anything to do with flamenco necessarily, and "improvising" with a scale is not what flamenco is about (like the vid you showed is NOT flamenco). So with no musical passage or falseta, you are not really asking anything.
So as soon as you get started learning some compas and A SINGLE FALSETA, you are starting to learn flamenco. Before that, you are not doing anything, just noodling.
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to Ricardo)
ahaaaaa, someone else today said that--that that Instructional video is not Flamenco? Why is it not? What is difference? Sorry to be naive, but we have to ask to learn... And can you link me to a similar video which is Flamenco,,,,,,,,,?? as it is Flamenco I particularly want to learn?
I dont wanna noodle. I've done enough noodling with my high action guitar :(
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
yeah, that's good for a start... the best thing you can do is watch and listen to as much flamenco as you can, and read back in the foro as there have been many useful links here and also there are replies to questions usually asked by beginners...
the video is of a farruca, one of the simpler palos (styles), you might also want to check out "tientos" and "tangos" as they are rhythms you are more used to...
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
As you see that video has him playing chords and rythym. I am NOW also looking for authentic scales learning. As other member said that the Instruction video I had linked was not authenitc Flamenco
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
quote:
Simply put, you use which ever technique is REQUIRED to execute a SPECIFIC musical passage. In flamenco musical passages are called "FALSETAS". Running a scale with any name need not have anything to do with flamenco necessarily, and "improvising" with a scale is not what flamenco is about (like the vid you showed is NOT flamenco). So with no musical passage or falseta, you are not really asking anything.
So as soon as you get started learning some compas and A SINGLE FALSETA, you are starting to learn flamenco. Before that, you are not doing anything, just noodling.
Ricardo
I got in contact with a guitar forum, and noticed they had in their list that Instructional video, so I put your views to him about it and this was his response:
" The video is a improv on the Dominant Phrygian scale also named the Flamenco Scale. The rhythm is basically a Rumba Flamenca. Flamencos can be very close minded and only stick to the traditional forms. Some used to say Paco de Lucia went to far, now they say the same about Vicente Amigo and Gerardo Nuñez. A lot of their tunes are not Traditional Flamenco, or even Flamenco in the traditional sense. I hope this helps. "
ps--lol I just searched Gerado Nunez at YT and (powerful!) notice your forum is advettized near end
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
Yeah, i would trust that random guy on a guitar forum, instead of Ricardo, who is a performing flamenco artist...
Btw. didnt you look at the video i posted above??? I think, first you have to be clear what you want. The video you posted, or the one i posted. One of them is called "Improvising with the flamenco scale" and the other one is "Flamenco: Solea". AFTER THAT one can help you with specific technical questions.
Btw2: to falsify what is quoted in your post... traditional or not is a question of style of playing, mainly with compas (=special flamenco rythm) and chords, and not a question of the flamenco form itself.
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to XXX)
You mean This is Flamenco Solea?
And you are saying this is the authentic Flamenco form rather than the Instrutional video?
" AFTER THAT one can help you with specific technical questions.
Btw2: to falsify what is quoted in your post... traditional or not is a question of style of playing, mainly with compas (=special flamenco rythm) and chords, and not a question of the flamenco form itself."
I am asking questions which is why I am here. Learning.
Actually the guy I quoted owns the forum which is devoted to learning guitar. I think he is just saying that some Flamenco artists have been criticized for not keeping to traditional style. And he mentioned some names.
So Deniz, you seem to be suggesting this--that the FIRST most important thing to learn for authentic flamenco is compas and chords
And not to worry yet about picado---by picado i am taking it to mean scales? That improv8ising via scales is not Flamenco?
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
also i must ask this because i cherish my fingers/joints. I have steel string guitar (at moment, ahnd hope to soon get classical or flamenco guitar)--would you practice capo on a steel stringed guitar?
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
it's not easy to explain as flamenco is much more complex as it seems at first... the last video of paco de lucía is an excerpt from a traditional style soleá...the one before of gerardo núnez is also based on the form of soleá, but is a very advanced piece that's pushing the limits of traditional flamenco, you don't have to concern yourself with that yet... by traditional we mostly mean form of rhythm (compás) and the key the piece is performed in... so yes, you first have to know where the whole thing comes from, you'll have to associate the name of the palo with it's rhythmic structure and the key it's performed in...so in the case of soleá, you'll have to know that the compás is 12 beats, with the 12 3 6 8 10 accented...12 is key in these forms... also you should be aware that most of the times it's played in the key of E, using the chords E, F, G, Am, C...
picado is a technique, which you use to play single notes, yes, for scale runs if you want...but don't associate it with that, if you want, you can play scales with your thumb... playing scales and improvizing is generally not considered "pure" flamenco...there is a form called rumba which is 4 beats and people like to play simple chords and improvize solos on them...there are a couple of advanced great rumbas out there, but generally it's something for fiestas or, since it's quite easy on the ears, guitarists try (or are forced) to sell records with them...most of the times you'll see people playing rumbaish things that they'll call flamenco when in fact they have absolutely no clue what flamenco is... i think flamenco is one thing, rumba is another thing that have connections and can mix, but ultimately they're different genres...
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
capo is ok for a steel strung guitar...but i wouldn't play flamenco on that one, your nails are important for the style and the steel ruins them, your fingers might hurt too... if you're serious about learning flamenco guitar, you'll have to get a flamenco guitar, a classical won't be good, because the setup is different, also the tone... people have suggested a Yamaha flamenco guitar as great for starters, it both has a good tone and is very affordable...
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
quote:
s
See, I am learning
Yes someone here said that in flamenco, a good player with bad rythym is less respected than a bad player with rythym?
As for playing scales with thumb. Well, no, I really want to get out of that habit. I so love seeing guitarists use their fingers. I really want to learn that
Remember I am beginner so will have to get the Santos Martinez sm 80 , i think--though haven't even tried it yet--as it is within what i can afford.
Even second hand flamenco guitars are more than the price of the santos
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
quote:
The rhythm is basically a Rumba Flamenca.
Basically, he doesn't even know how to play rumba but he is teaching flamenco??
I dont' want to sound too snobby or negative, students need to search different sources and discover things for themselves. Maybe this teacher is a fantastic flamenco player I dont' know, but I would need to hear an example,and I would advise that he get some lessons on Rumba compas.
Phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of harmonic minor, and as a scale does not need to be associated with only flamenco. Many musics use that mode. In actual flamenco music, while the phrygian mode is often taken as the tonic or home key, ALL SCALES can be fair game in flamenco, including the Chromatic scale.
To learn flamenco music you don't improvise scale runs over chords. (The guy doing psuedo rumba wants to be like Paco vs Al Dimeola doing their fusion. Difference is Paco knows rumba, Al doesn't... hence the "fusion". 4/4 is not all that make rumba compas. Improvising scales over chords was "new" to Paco at that time, not the flamenco way.)
They way to improvise in flamenco is by playing a mix of rhythm patterns and falsetas. here is an example of flamenco being improvised...notice lots of rhythm an melodies, but not any scale runs per say...
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to Ricardo)
I hope you know I respect your opinion, and didn't mean to disrespect you by quoting the guy. It though is a forum, and I think other peoples views add to a more diverse range of opinion
I feel I am learning more and more about Flamenco since coming here! Which is important--for somewhere you have to learn right? And do we ever stop learning....? No
It seems more and more that the rythym, compas? is vitally important to grasp the very first. my frustration at the moment is I cany fully explore it because of the unforgiving steel strings on my guitar, and until I make a decision of what guitar to get...........though i am trying best i can. I have strummed hell out of this guitar on some wild nights in the past so maybe my fingers and nails are tough lol
Interesting what you say about Flamenco using lots of scales
Even generally, scales are something I need to fully understand
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to Ricardo)
Please can you, (others) tell me ~~what is falsetas?? is there a good video that shows this for beginner please?
Also Ricardo, I notice you answered another members questions about scales: quote:
ORIGINAL: Reinhardt
hmmm, dont understand much you just said but anyways lol, can you give me some usefull flamenco scales please? Some links or e-mail me at mstonequotes@mweb.co.za would be much appreciated, thx
Would love to start improvising
Simply put, the CHROMATIC SCALE to start with, and every kind of scale you can make from that is fair game in flamenco.....so long as you make it "flamenco". Best thing for you would be to forget about the scales themselves, or rather, try to extract some scales you like from actual FALSETAS. Much safer way to approach if you want your playing to still be called "flamenco". You will discover flamenco is more about rhythm, and patterns, and melody, than the scales themselves like in other music.
Oh, if improvising in a jazz way is your thing, not having to do with flamenco, I recommend John Mclaughlin's DVD course. It is long and expensive, but he takes you from baby steps with a basic major scale, and keeps getting more and more complex until you pretty much figure out how to apply scales to improvisation on your own. It is very challenging, and you learn a lot about how chords and scales relate, no matter what your level is.
Ricardo '
So chromatic is the most common flamenco scale, and you recommend beginners get fluent with it?
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
Hm this forum is definitely not geared towards the absolute beginner!
All these new terms, I would be looking elsewhere if I wouldn't have had lessons for almost a year now.
Can't someone who is starting this new adventure begin with the basics?
A simple classical guitar, mine was less than 200 euro's and my teacher thinks it has a pretty good sound, there's talk of getting the action lowered but I've not had a problem with the original set up of my guitar and my teacher hasn't commented on it as well so for a first year player I'm doing OK with my basic instrument.
And then where to start, there is so much stuff on youtube, of course not all of great quality but if you search for stuff you can always find some exercises to get yourself started.
I'm new to this forum so I still need to find out where all the info is but maybe a glossary of terms, or a special thread for the people who are brand new to flamenco?
It would be a pity if they are put off by the whole new lingo and everything there is to know, different styles, different techniques, etc.
Lesson number one for me was an E chord strumming down with middle and ring finger and counting 12 and accent on 3 6 8 10 12 etc.
Then maybe try out rasgueado, if you try that for the first time it feels really weird, you have to get used to the feeling and it looks so simple but to really hit all the strings with every finger from pinkie to index with every finger producing the same sound and in a flowing matter, you could keep yourself busy for a week or two LOL
If you move the E chord one fret and alternate it instantly sounds Spanish, whoohoo am I getting frowns for saying this? But tell me, is there a greater way to get yourself to enjoy playing and practicing, getting hungry to learn more than to get immediate "result"? It works for me.
Better than first almost having to pass an exam on Higher Flamencology with all the terms and techniques etc. before you're even allowed to pick up the guitar and play something that might sound to the expert as swearing in church, you're playing for your own fun I hope and not to get respect from people who live and breathe flamenco and have already done so for years and years!
Might as well not start at all then...?
OK I might not be the one to speak because I know close to squat about flamenco but one thing I do know is how it is to be a beginner!
Hope that helped and good luck!
_____________________________
"Excuse me madam, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?"
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to newstringjunkie)
quote:
Hm this forum is definitely not geared towards the absolute beginner!
Hi Eva and welcome!
It IS, but it's better to actually have a reasonably playable guitar and know a few basic chords first, which you can learn anywhere.
The advice you have given so far sounds good to me anyway!
(Also, it pays to search around a bit on the forum as many questions will have been answered or discussed before. Also"edguerin" has just uploaded a link to a Glossary of Flamenco Terms by Tony Arnold today.)
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to Ron.M)
Hi Ron,
Thanks for the welcome and your comments.
About a good choice for a beginners instrument I agree that it shouldn't be a good instrument for in the fireplace but when I browse guitarshops online I notice a big difference in prices for classical guitars and flamenco guitar, and maybe a flamenco guitar might be the logical option, for some it's big bucks we're talking about and for a beginner who doesn't even know whether he/she will still like flamenco playing as much after a couple of months (because it IS pretty darn hard...)
I'd say check your bank balance and your motivation before you spend like 700 800 euro's on an instrument when you can also surprise your teacher with the unexpected sound of a 189 euro classical guitar like I do :)
_____________________________
"Excuse me madam, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?"
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to newstringjunkie)
quote:
I'd say check your bank balance and your motivation before you spend like 700 800 euro's on an instrument when you can also surprise your teacher with the unexpected sound of a 189 euro classical guitar like I do :)
Yeah Eva,
I agree. A half decent Spanish Guitar with the action taken down a bit (even if it buzzes a bit) and a self-adhesive tap plate will be fine to start off with.
But a guitar with a string height like a bow and arrow is no use for anything. It'll just put you off practising altogether.
Once you have a little bit of experience though, you'll find that the low bridge height on a Flamenco guitar makes things MUCH easier!
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to newstringjunkie)
quote:
ORIGINAL: newstringjunkie
I'd say check your bank balance and your motivation before you spend like 700 800 euro's on an instrument when you can also surprise your teacher with the unexpected sound of a 189 euro classical guitar like I do :)
Buy a used Yahama Flamenco Guitar for 250$ (one member here is currently selling one with good setup in the foro....have a look)
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Please help me--pootete beginner... (in reply to duwen)
quote:
So chromatic is the most common flamenco scale, and you recommend beginners get fluent with it?
Umm, no man! My point was flamenco is not about scales at all....per say. The chromatic scale simply means ALL AVAILABLE NOTES on the neck. You can't just make it up and improvise. Many people have miss conceptions about flamenco music and guitar playing, this is one very common one. That is why you might get responses like this:
Because it is frustrating for people to teach or explain around that concept. You need to listen to flamenco, and read just a little about it. It is hard for people on a forum like this, many who have been deeply involved in flamenco for years, to simply inform you verbally what flamenco IS. I had to teach a guitar workshop yesterday, and NONE Of the students had heard flamenco before. So the first thing I explained was what rhythm guitar is in flamenco (Compas strumming) and FALSETAS (short melodic sections.)
So Falsetas on guitar are everything that is NOT strumming chords. A single falseta could be as short as ONE COMPAS (a single rhythm cycle), or as long as dozens of compases. Even a flamenco player could string together many falsetas to make a composition with no compas strumming in between. What is most typical, as in the tomatito example, is that a guitar solo is made up of unrelated falsetas of a particular form (bulerias, solea, fandango, whatever is being played), bookended by compas or rhythm guitar. And it can be arranged so that the falsetas are always in a certain oder, or they can be played in a random order, however the guitarist feels.
When accompanying singing or dancing, most of what is required is simply compas strumming. THe falsetas are reserved for the introduction perhaps, and interlude in the middle, but that is a big generalization and there is not a rule about it.
For the beginners of flamenco, i think it is important that you listen to a lot of flamenco even before learning techniques of playing. The reason is the technique really come out of the music, not vice versa. It is important that if a teacher says "today we will work on Solea" that you the student already know sort of what that might sound like. Vs if he said "today we will look a TARANTA" or "Tangos" etc. I know it seems foreign and like you need to be a flamencologist at first, but it is really important. When encountering a music from a culture that is NOT your own, you have to respect certain things about it, such as the terminology used, and even methods of learning. The student who wants to learn things "his own way" that makes him happy, will not get very far IMO.
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