fandangos coplas and compas

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henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

fandangos coplas and compas

after looking at normans fandago page, i've got a few questions as regards the structure of fandangos and copla. how many verses are in a standard fandango piece?

ive seen it played that the accent is
1 2 3 with the accent of the one and the palmas being the same

like follows

1 2 3 1 2 3 ..etc. is this correct.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 7:17:34

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

Good questions, Henry, and all stuff that I’ve been really confused about and trying to work out myself lately.

I was playing with a dancer and she kept looking over at me, confused. She looked at my foot tapping as I played and then stopped and showed me how she feels FdH compas, which was pretty much what you have there.

So a twelve beat cycle would work out to this:

123,123,123,123

Now, in listening to FdH, I could make sense of and feel that rhythm, but when trying to PLAY or adjust my foot tapping to that feel, I could get it at all. I ended up just sticking with what I was doing in the first place, and she hasn’t noticed and/or complained about it.

Earlier this week I posed the issue to my teacher, explaining the above approach to him, and he said no, straight away. He plays in sixes, starting on six, tapping the even beats. This is actually what I was doing in the first place (though I was calling the “6” a “1”), and it feels right sounds right.

The chord changes during the coplas can be really tricky to me, in a way similar to the way sevillanas can be deceptively hard.

Do you have the Solo Compas FdH disc? The first, slow one seems to be REALLY standard and might be a good reference for trying to figure out verse structure and such. The guitar-only track is really helpful for hearing the chord changes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 8:08:35

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

1 2 3 1 2 3 ..etc. is this correct.

Yep Henry, but you don't start playing until the 2.

So it's Golpe, E7, Am ...etc in your example above.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 9:44:49

russelldinho

Posts: 22
Joined: Nov. 11 2008
From: In-Gur-Land

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

is thishttp://www.ctv.es/USERS/norman/fandango.htm the page? i've been going cross eyed trying to work out this fandango compas this afternoon. it does seem to feel easier counting in 6's and accenting the 3 & 5...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 10:20:33

Guest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to russelldinho)

Hola

Fandangos compás is really easy, contrary to what I thought when I was trying to work out Juan Martin´s explanation or when I tried to play for dance students in London who had no idea where to come in.

However I have accompanied many cantaores without problems and the teacher is right. The compas is basically 12s but a singer can elongate the cante and insert 6s at will. If there is no singer, even simpler, since all will resolve in 12s. The best ways to accompany this are:.

Probably the biggest problem comes at the transition from the Phrygian section to the verse (major section) but 12s still prevail:

E, E, Am (1,2,3) space, rasgeo(Am) space,(4,5,6)
G7, F, E (7,8,9) space, rasgeo (E) space, (10, 11, 12)

If the cante is to follow, a Fdim arpegio on 10, 11 12 works well. Then index, index G7 (1,2,3), space, G7 (rasgeo)space, (4,5,6)
index, index C (1,2,3), space C (rasgeo) etc, changing chords with the singer.

There are as many verses as the singer wants to sing, and they may change key depending on the fandango. A singer might also cut his first line to a single word, which changes the compa, but this would be unusual in a dance class.

Easier to play than to write down

Suerte

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 10:58:13

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to russelldinho)

quote:

it does seem to feel easier counting in 6's and accenting the 3 & 5...

Yeah...in Flamenco it always seems easier accenting what we think is the rhythm, but actually you end up learning your own rhythm and not the Flamenco one although it appears to be in time so you think it's OK.

Flamenco rhythm and groove is definitely not intuitive to those of us brought up in a non-Flamenco environment IMO and needs quite a bit of study and listening to get it and feel it correctly.

That's been my experience anyway.

There is a very good CD called "Understanding Flamenco", where Amir Haddad demonstrates all the Flamenco rhythms in basic form.

Well worth buying.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 11:07:41

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Guest)

Very helpful post, Sean! Over the past few weeks I’ve dug through all my reading materials, Juan Martin included, and for the most part much of it has only made things cloudier rather than clearer. But your explanation makes good horse sense.

But one thing before I end up getting confused again, is everyone here operating on the same interpretation of what the numbered beats are? Ron’s starting his first chord on “2”, Sean’s starting on “1”, my teacher’s starting on “6”…….

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 11:40:36

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to srshea)

quote:

Ron’s starting his first chord on “2”, Sean’s starting on “1”,

Naw Adam,

Sean is just playing an E with the thumb over the golpe on 1.
It's the same thing really.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 11:44:12

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Ron.M)

Thanks, Ron.

Didn't you upload some fandangos a while back? One of your "lazy" things?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 11:58:31

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to srshea)

Yes Adam, but it's "free form" Fandangos intro, so not a very clear example.

But if you listen to the general strum at the start and again about 0:19, then you'll see what I mean about the golpe on the 1.

(or the 4 or the 7 or the 10, or the 13 or the 16 or the 19....all the way up, depending on how you are counting!..

)

Ignore the rest as the golpes are just emphasising the notes rather than marking time.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=90631&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#90997

(To avoid confusion.....I only play the first bit once, since the idea was just about using the thumb in a lazy way of playing.
It would normally be repeated.)

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters even more. Anyway look out for the golpe on the 1 in the strumming.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 12:21:43

val

Posts: 800
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2009 15:03:55

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to val)

quote:

To dance a fairly basic FdH, I tend to think in terms of 12s, starting on 12

I think this is a good way, as it groups the whole phrase.

So I would think of that as Golpe 1 2 Golpe 4 5 Golpe 7 8 Golpe 10 11

(Which actually is a way of looking at Bulerias too if you substitute a silence for the Golpe.)
So that keeps things quite tidy.

cheers,

Ron!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 1:24:11

Guest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Ron.M)

Oops! Tried to upload an mp3 of basic fandangos compas, but software says "not supported".

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 2:55:34

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Guest)

Hi Sean,
You can only upload mp3s in the Audio/Video uploads section.

Just upload it there and make a link to it here.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 5:12:05

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Ron.M)

Alright, I guess I’m still a little hazy on some of this stuff, namely the numbering of the beats and the starting point.

If you listen to either the “Compas & Guitar 120” or “140” here:
Compas Thing

this has a pretty clear example of what I think Ron’s talking about, that golpe (or in this case, cajon) on first beat, E chord second beat. It’s in twelves, starting on “1”, so I’m guessing that this is what Val is talking about, but with a different approach to numbering the beats?

I just reviewed the tape of my last lesson, and this is what my teacher is doing:

Counting in sixes, starting on six, he does:

6&1&2, etc. which works out as:
Golpe on six, E upstroke on &, E downstroke on 1, E upstroke on &, Am downstroke on 2, etc.

Sooooo….. as I type this out I’m becoming increasingly convinced that everyone’s talking about and playing the same thing, but with a toAYto/tomAHto approach to what “12” or “1” or “6” is……

Regarding foot tapping, in that 6&1&2 approach I’m still inclined to tap every other beat, on the even beats. Is anyone here doing something other than that?

Sorry, Henry, for hogging up your thread with all my own questions, but I think we’re staying true to the spirit of the original topic, for the most part. I hope.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 7:57:12

Guest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Ron.M)

Hola

Tried to uploadin the AV section: still says not valid. Crap sofdtware, I give up!

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 8:25:33

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Guest)

No probs srshea,

i got a cd on grandes fandangos and some other cds from flamenco_world and its great stuff. all real old grainy records but whoever says the fandango is not cante jondo i'd tend to disagree. some of the letras are extremely profound listening to some of it.

id like to try and do some voice accompaniment in the future either to tientos or fandangos (el carbonero said these are proably the best to start with). plus if you got some good pipes (which i dont posess) you cant accompany yourself por fandango.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 10:02:07

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

Henry,

Yup, couldn’t agree more about fandangos. I love ‘em, all types. Especially when they’re sung by Paco Toronjo, who I’m listening to right now….

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 10:22:11

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to srshea)

quote:

Alright, I guess I’m still a little hazy on some of this stuff, namely the numbering of the beats and the starting point.

Adam,

You're over complicating things with all this counting stuff.

The main problem with Fandangos (de Huelva) for non Flamencos is that we feel the accent of a 3/4 rhythm differently. (think of waltz's)

Flamenco always seems to play off the "main" beat in all sorts of stuff (Tangos etc etc) and this is what leads to the confusion, I think.

Listen to this.

Notice how everybody keeps a strong 3/4 rhythm going with the accent on the first beat.

A "foreigner" would expect the first Am chord to be the main down beat and the final E of the G,F,E run to be the main down beat...'cos that's the way we've been brought up to hear a 3/4 rhythm.

Once you see that's NOT the way to do it, then you've got it.

Forget the numbers and just listen to how the guitar fits in with the straightforward 3/4 rhythm they are thumping on the table.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 10:32:25

peghead48

Posts: 36
Joined: Oct. 16 2008
From: Cheltenham

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

One the subject of Fandangos would anyone know where these tabs can be obtained,

www://youtube.com/watch?=X6c-jndfpI4&feature=related,

its a tabmovie of Pepe

don't think its too hard, but good to get all the notes correct.

Thanks
Simon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2009 12:25:58

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

You're over complicating things with all this counting stuff.

I know, I know, Ron. I actually had to stop reading this stuff the other day, ‘cause we had to work on the fandangos that evening and I felt like I was perilously close to voiding out all my default settings and rendering myself incapable of simply playing. In general I tend not to get too wrapped up in overly complicated counting and philosophizing, but I just sort of hit a snag with this one thing…..

That youtube example was good. You can see Juan Carlos Romero softly nodding his head on that first beat, sort of dipping and grooving into it…

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2009 9:22:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to srshea)

quote:

but I just sort of hit a snag with this one thing…..

Absolutely NOT Adam,

Fandangos de Huelva is almost as complicated as Bulerias IMO.

I know it sounds simple to listen to, but once you get into falsetas etc it's all too easy to shift the beat around a bit and get lost compás-wise!

FdH falsetas can accent the 1 the 2 or the 3 and jump around a lot between them.

It's not so simple as folk think!

In fact even though it is basically 3/4 rhythm, the phrasing can be perceived in 4 groups of 3 beats or 3 groups of 4 beats.

(That's why you find yourself naturally tapping every other beat).

Fandangos may be seen Flamencology-wise as "folk" music and not Flamenco....but Fandangos de Huelva, certainly has adopted that "polyrhythm" feel about it that makes it true Flamenco IMO.

Thees no ees easy!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2009 11:15:34

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

Just two things I´ve learned from accompanying singers on FdH.

There´s no standard length of a FdH. the verses (letras) are not connected. It can be just 1, 2 or whatever. The same in Fandangos naturales.

Some of the personal versions of Fandango de Huelva and Fandango de Alosno are shortened or prolonged in some of the chords and it can be in 3, 6 or 12, depending on the version and the singers inspiration. Use your ears.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2009 12:34:56

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2009 16:48:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

Well, its definately different from what I´m used to hear here in Huelva. The soniquete and the speed are different. It could be because Its for dance.

Playing with a singer, its slower and with another accentuation. I will make a video later today, but the problem is that I´m not totally sure what Henry wants.
question:
compas - copla - compas?

Also some falseta stuff? Falsetas in general enter in 10 or 12 (counting 12)

The golpes are very important. and should be studied from start

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2009 1:08:02

val

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Joined: Apr. 4 2007

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2009 1:29:31

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Listen to this.

When I first saw that clip it was such an eye opener for me. I always thought FdH was about trivial folky stuff.

Interesting sample from Val - from a dancer's point of view that is much faster than those I have performed to. I may have a recording of something I've used for a dance performance I'll look it out and upload a bit if I can find it.

Not sure this is helping Henry at all, but it's an interesting thread!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2009 1:39:47

val

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2009 1:47:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

Listen to this.

This is pretty much what I´ve been taught and how I would play with singers. It is also played in a speed and with a soniquete that people from here would call correct. (they are very religious about ther FdH)

Analyze:
there are 4 letras.
number 1 is a Fandango de Huleva played por arriba. Pretty standard

Number 2, 3, and 4 (the ones with Toronjo) are fandagos de Alosno. Played por medio. (different soniquete than Huelva) number 2 and 3 are prolonged medio compás at the end in order to let the singer express himself. Number 4, (the nationla hymn of Alosno) is straight forward Fandango de Alosno.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2009 3:21:39

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: fandangos coplas and compas (in reply to henrym3483)

I made a small video of Fandangos de Huelva and Alosno, so that you can see and hear the difference in the soniquete. Both ar standard without shortenings or prolongations. This is how I play with singers:
Hopefully I can make a video soon with a singer.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=103829&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2009 6:29:54