consecutive thumb strokes and speed

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ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

consecutive thumb strokes and speed

Sorry, but the search is not working for me today.

Im doing pretty well with my right hand progress, but there are
some things that im having alot of trouble with.

One big one is being able to do 2 and 3 thumb/down strokes quickly enough.
I dont like the sound, or lack of power when i try to use a thumb upstroke
in a single note thumb line.

After over a month of trying to get 2 thumb strokes in a row
at a rate of say, 16ths at 140bpm, im just getting nowhere. Ive tried
slow practice, not allowing myself to try bursts for a few days, then trying
to cresendo with the metronome, and it aint happening.

Most other techinques are going rather well, so it feels really frustrating,
cause when i reach a part in a falseta where i need to do a 2 or 3 note burst
with the thumb, i suddenly feel, and sound like i just started playing the guitar
yesterday.

Can anybody give me any insight as to what i might be doing wrong, or maybe
what im thinking wrong?
Thanks!
TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2009 14:55:31

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

As specific musical example would help, like what sequence of notes? Also, are you powering the movement with just thumb joint, wrist, or arm? For example when doing alzapua w/out pull offs, but groups of 4 instead of 3, there is a way to "bounce" the thumb twice in a row using the wrist.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2009 15:19:22

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

Oops, my error. Ignore.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2009 16:00:26

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to Ricardo)

Hi Todd,

Practice scales with the thumb doing all downstrokes slower and loud. Repetition of the movement is what is needed. You should be using more wrist/arm than the thumb joint. A slight push down of the arm and a twist of the wrist for each down stroke works for me.

Here is an idea..... compose a cool melody for bulerias that is consecutive 8th notes for 8 or more compases without letting up for rasgueado. Practice it slow and loud like I mentioned above. Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) you will be playing 8th notes at 240bpm or better and a couple of 16th notes a little faster wont seem so hard.

There is a falseta in an older bulerias of mine that started out the same way. It was an exercise I made up to develope my thumb. I stuck a remate at the end of it once I could play it at tempo....
The falseta/exercise is at 1:27 of the following video...

Developing the thumb is a long process. Most other techniques come together easier.
When you realize what it really is we are doing with just downstrokes with the thumb, it seem almost impossible. Yet so many players do it so well. Its a matter of hard work, patience and dedication........ all of which are things you have in spades.

A nice exercise like I mentioned and some scale work... maybe practice improvising over chord progressions using the same technique exclusively a little in each practice session.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2009 16:02:25

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

Hey Todd, thats not something you can achieve easily and nothing to be worried about.
I have the same problem since a long time and achieve only little improvements (and i am not doing it only a month like you but longer). Like fast clean Picado, this is also one of the most difficult things for right hand and takes time, and is not comparable to arpeggio for instance. So be patient and relax.

btw, in this video which you posted after you switched to "normal playing"

http://www.vimeo.com/2351127

you use this typical Moraito thumb position where the thumb is almost parallel to the strings and where you play with the very left side of your nail. And at the same time, you wrist position is a little bit too high.
It is just a guess and i dont know if you always use this thumb position?!, but i find it to be difficult to have good free movement from the wrist with this position.
Me personally find it very hard to play fast thumb downstrokes with this position.
Yes, the sound is special , and you have this nice "scratching on a glas" crunchy sound, but for me it works only in some cases where i play slow. I have to play like most other players if i want to get it faster.

So if this is the case, try to bring your wrist down and in the same height as the string you are playing the pulgar and then the whole movement from wrist. And if you move to lower string, also move down you wrist a little bit so that your wrist is always in the same level of the string.

Look here your wrist and the string you are playing

and here the wrist

Dont know if i can make myself understood and if what i am saying makes sence....but maybe some ideas....

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2009 17:09:49

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

WOW! You guys really gave me some GREAT stuff to think about!

Especially those pictures really help. Ive already started to naturally go
that direction with my wrist, but now that i see the direct comparison,
it really makes more sense, and now i think i will see a marked improvement.

I realize these things dont happen overnight, so

Thanks so much you guys!!! Very much appreciated!

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2009 9:06:09

ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

hats off to you, todd! i am continually trying to go back through my small repretroire and fix and improve as i get better which requires such discipine.

i can't imagine the unbelievable hassle of relearning base techniques and going back through your large catalog of pieces and fighting the muscle memory. i hope you retain your tone!

doug

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2009 10:02:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

After over a month of trying to get 2 thumb strokes in a row
at a rate of say, 16ths at 140bpm, im just getting nowhere.

Actually I just realized that is pretty darn fast. I mean, bulerias if they were 16ths such as Jason's example, is more in the 130 bpm range, and that is FAST already for consecutive downs with no pull offs. I think if you can do it around 120 bpm you are already doing well. If you were PICKING 16ths at 140, wouldn't you be alternate picking? Most of the time, flamenco thumbing down strokes are more like ECONOMY picking of Frank Gambale style.....and even sometimes a back stroke with the thumb nail is cool. Hope that makes some sense.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2009 12:40:09

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

It annoys the hell out of me that I, for example, can't play certain bulerias falsetas at a higher speed not because I mess up coordination-wise, but simply because my thumb can't keep up. I thought of shortcutting by trying to learn the thumb upstroke, but that seems like cheating in the long run...I suppose there's still a lot of work to do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2009 14:59:26

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

yeah, the thumb upstroke just doesnt sound right to me.

i think the answer is= more practice

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2009 22:32:15

Thomas

Posts: 225
Joined: Oct. 5 2005

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

Sorry for being a little OT :

I surely am stating the obvious here, but as I browse this forum only once in a while I hope this is allowed:
Todd, I visited your mytube channel and am really amazed of your playing.
You produce a better flamenco sound with your pick than many others with their fingers...and I also dig your electric gtr playing
Hats off, man !!

Thomas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 1 2009 22:56:20

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

the thumb upstroke

...i never used an up stroke except in alzapua.

Are you using it like a pick? Down up down?!?

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2009 9:03:00

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to duende)

Sure Duende. Upstrokes can be very effective. Many guitarists use them. Its not an off-the-wall sort of technique. It just doesn't get mentioned much.

Here is a video to help explain..... Notice at the end after the exercise, I demonstrate how to use the technique melodically in an improvisational way.

Thumb Upstroke Exercise

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2009 9:38:47

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

I play like that from time to time but i think of it as alzapua. Otherwise i do all down strokes

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2009 10:00:49

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to duende)

I figured you would know the technique. Perhaps the video will help some others who aren't familiar with the "alzapua on a single string" idea.

_____________________________

http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2009 10:13:39

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

At two minutes and 36 seconds into the Tarantas lesson Adam Del Monte calls this the “thumb doodle” technique. You can see it here:

I tried this a while back and did not like the sensation on the top part of the side of the thumb. I liked the way Jason used the area closer to the center of the thumb nail.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2009 10:29:18

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

i love the arabic sound in jason's video!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2009 11:48:13

KenK

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2005

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to ToddK)

Question-

When I do this descending "single note alzapua", the first note on a lower string is always just "hammered on" really hard, no thumb.

Is this right?

Ken

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2009 9:46:47

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: consecutive thumb strokes and speed (in reply to KenK)

Yes Ken. You've got it. Thats what I'm doing in the video. It helps to make descending passages across different strings sound more seamless.

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2009 12:11:51