A teacher who counts...yes!!!

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Wannabee

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007

A teacher who counts...yes!!!

I wish my teacher had counted things out like this:

It would have made things so much easier for me.

I know a lot of players/teachers insist on "feeling" the compas, but that takes a lot of time and a lot of listening.

To me, counting comes first, then after a lot of practice the feeling will come.

Not the other way around.

What do you guys/gals think?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 17:32:29

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

before i started learning flamenco, i played only by feel.

when it came to writing down music, i was completely lost because i didn't know how to count.

but counting sometimes gets in the way as some have figured out in the intermediate challenge.

so i think it's good to learn both. maybe play by feel but make sure that if you wanted to, you can analyze what you're playing and know what goes where. that's what im trying to do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 17:51:35

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee) 1 votes

There are many roads one could take to learn something, but regardless of the method used, if you don't ultimately FEEL the rhythm, then you don't really know it.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 18:35:11

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

but regardless of the method used, if you don't ultimately FEEL the rhythm, then you don't really know it.

when i was a band geek in high school, i noticed that pretty much no one played with any feeling at all. they all sat there counting what they were playing. it ended up sounding cold, machine like, and amateurish.

the kids who never bothered counting would often play the best. coincidence?

a lot of people get addicted and become dependent on counting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 19:16:10

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

i find it interesting that you are seperating counting from feeling, as were they different things...

you can easily feel 1. you can easily tell where the downbeat is. how is that different?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 20:37:51

Thomas

Posts: 225
Joined: Oct. 5 2005

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

feeling the compas starts with being able to count it.
It is a unmistakable sign of bad timing if a musician can't tap the beat while
playing the instrument.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 21:59:14

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

a few years ago, i wouldn't have known what beats were what. despite this, i could still play competently. it's like playing a note without knowing what note it is. you just know to play it.

what im distinguishing between are the people that sit there and count "1-2-3and4and" and people that just feel that rhythm tak-tak-taka-taka." that's what i mean by feeling it rather than counting.

the point of my story was to point out that some people get hung up and dependent on counting. while the people who felt the music often learned and played the piece more effectively but later found out they had no idea what they were doing when it came to writing down music.

im suggesting to wannabee that he does both.

quote:

To me, counting comes first, then after a lot of practice the feeling will come.

this seems right to me. after a short while the two will merge and you can start to relate the downbeats to numbers subconsciously like hemeolaman said.

quote:

you can easily feel 1. you can easily tell where the downbeat is.

except that's not true for me. like in bulerias, i can easily feel 12 and 3. 1 is ignored. but if i didn't learn to count it, i wouldn't know it's a 12 and 3. it'd just be TAK tuh tuh TAK tuh tuh. see what i mean?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 22:13:27

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

All the teachers I have learnt with count, but just as a means to an end. As soon as you can feel the compas you can stop counting, but I think you would always be aware of it. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Same with dancer teachers - they count too.

Perhaps if you can grown up listening to flamenco you wouldn't need to, but if you didn't start listening to flamenco until your later 40s like me, you definitely need some numbers

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 23:17:07

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

A few thoughts: It's a useful skill for most people. It doesn't just come naturally and no solid performer does it all the time, so I think that beginners should learn this skill to different degrees and at different stages of their development. Rather than an actual part of playing, I see it as a tool to get you through moments of uncertainty, especially when you're making your own falsetas or maybe when the singer you're accompanying is doing some strange things.

Also, I think there's something to be gained from learning to coordinate the two activities (counting and playing). In my own case, it always felt like it was opening up my mind.

So, IMO: learn to do it (silently) but make sure it's not the focus of your playing.

Whoops, just saw your post Ailsa...

quote:

As soon as you can feel the compas you can stop counting, but I think you would always be aware of it. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Exactly!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2009 23:36:27

MarcChrys

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

Thanks for the link - very educational.

Thought this was also quite helpful...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2009 4:28:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to MarcChrys)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcChrys

Thanks for the link - very educational.

Thought this was also quite helpful...

Whoa! that made me a little dizzy and nauseous....not only because of the spinning wheel but also the groove was not very tight.....

I would say do away with this method and work on tightening the groove with a simple steady click....I totally understand the point of showing symmetry in the meter (everything works out to 12 mathematically) but the feeling in the rhythm (as argued in this thread) is the whole thing....

you see this is typical of so many that learn compas this way, counting to 12, "goin for the accents" so it all works out meter wise, but where is the soniquete? You have to feel all the stuff inbetween, not just understand where certain accents land....

I feel counting and playing at the same time is a special skill, almost identical to singing and playing at the same time....not necessary to only play, but it does help a player or teacher in a certain way. Accompanying dance, I feel the count is like lyrics to a song, when you hear the certain part, you always know where you are....but counting does not help you master rhythm by itself.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2009 9:52:43

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 17 2009 9:58:23

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2009 9:57:07

ddk

Posts: 155
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
From: California

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Ricardo)

I tried watching the Flamenco clock vid but it gave me a headache. Ricardo, could you please explain "soniquete"? I keep reading about it but am not sure exactly what it is...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2009 11:54:58

MarcChrys

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Ricardo)

I see what you're saying (I think) - knowing all the rhythms/meters and verse forms of poetry won't make you a good poet - one should naturally feel the flow without counting the number of syllables religiously in every line.

I think one issue that newcomers (relatively speaking) to Flamenco like myself face is that we feel a bit lost when confronted with all this arcane compas 12 beat cycle stuff. Also we notice how otherwise brilliant flair players are dismissed as unworthy if they don't maintain tight compas. So we start trying to 'book learn' the rhythm theoretically and mechanically, seek Compas 4 Dummies guides, and lose faith in our own 'feel'. So maybe you're right - Ditch the Clock! ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2009 12:50:18

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

quote:

I know a lot of players/teachers insist on "feeling" the compas

depends what you (or they ie players/teachers) mean by "feeling" the compas....

is it feeling as in physical sensation?

or an emotional feeling?

or an inclination?

or is it a bit of poetry to describe somthing that noone can quite put their finger on how to explain, but once they've got it they know what they mean and when they communicate it to someone else who's also already got it they know what they mean too?!!!!

IMO "feeling" in the sense of "feeling the groove" or "feeling the compas" is actually a really deep form of knowing, and counting is a shallow insecure form of knowing, but can act as a kind of handrail or guide to help you on your way....

eventually, with a lot of experience listening, clapping, playing etc. it will turn into something else, which many people describe as "feeling" the rhythm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2009 13:11:55

Wannabee

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Wannabee)

I think by what you've described that we agree.

Counting is a means to an end....and that end is being able to feel the compas correctly without counting. Just like a good jazz player would be able to feel the chord changes and know where he/she is and where he/she is going next.

But, at least for me, it is a necessary step along the way. Just listening to the rhythms and having no idea of where the various accents fall is not very helpful.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2009 16:33:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to ddk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ddk

I tried watching the Flamenco clock vid but it gave me a headache. Ricardo, could you please explain "soniquete"? I keep reading about it but am not sure exactly what it is...

Basically it is the groove, swing, dynamics, expression, even empty space of the rhythm an individual will interpret, basically the rhythmic "feel" but meaning it is "good", and specific to flamenco usually. For example one could interpret or accompany with the "wrong" soniquete, or rather one could be corrected "that is not the right soniquete for jaleos...".

Beyond the definition it is hard to teach it or express it technically because it really ends up being a physical feeling of "yes that is right" or "no, it does not have soniquete". "Swing" is to jazz what soniquete is to flamenco...

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2009 19:22:53

ddk

Posts: 155
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
From: California

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to Ricardo)

Thank you. It sounds like it's harder to explain in words than with musical examples. Is it like a Buleria from Jerez has a certain style or soniquete that makes it feel/sound different than one from a different part of Andalucia?
(Sorry to sound so elementary here)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 12:06:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A teacher who counts...yes!!! (in reply to ddk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ddk

Thank you. It sounds like it's harder to explain in words than with musical examples. Is it like a Buleria from Jerez has a certain style or soniquete that makes it feel/sound different than one from a different part of Andalucia?
(Sorry to sound so out of the elementary here)

Yeah thats the idea.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 13:44:04