RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (a profoundly negative post :-) )

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Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to cathulu)

You can be a complete artist with your mind and your pen and write books about flamenco and preserve the knowledge.

And of course you can be a complete artist doing both.

But you can also be a complete artist without knowing much about theory and history and just play guitar.

I bet even Paco doesnt know that much about all the theoretical stuff as many other flamenco specialists.

I think he likes fishing, sitting together with friends and eat the fish, composing, play in concerts, make CDs, thats it. And he is a complete artist too.

As long as one artist doesnt want to convince others that his way of beeing an artist is the ultimative way, its all good IMO. Because everyone is playing his role in the world of flamenco in a different way and these roles may be different roles. But they are all valid and good and should be equaly valued.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 9:02:27

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to cathulu)

A flamenco guitarist's job is to learn to play flamenco guitar. We know best what is flamenco guitar by becoming knowledgable about what flamenco guitar has been throughout the long years it has existed, and what it has primarily served to do (accompany cante, tastefully and supportively). I am strictly an aficionado (no secret there), so can take the time and have the interest in learning more about the history of an art that has been around longer than last week, last month, or last year. But Florian and Stu, it seems you also can afford the time to post extensively, often even more extensively than I. That time could be spent in enriching your own understanding of what flamenco was, once upon a time, for a century or more, through reading and listening. Hence it is difficult for you to explain away--if not ignorance, then lack of interest in reading and listening to older flamenco, by saying that it takes time away from your guitar. ¿Verdad?

runner

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 10:29:29

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to runner)

Your goal is a bit unclear to me. Do you want to make historical data more popular? What when happened and what effect it had on spanish/gitano society/culture? Or do you want more "older flamenco" to be heard in order to get the recent stuff more appreciated? Or are you trying to say flamenco guitar has lost the track of what it primarily was about (cante)?

It seems natural to me, that because flamenco (especially guitar) is music, and music is expression of feelings, that you dont need history to appreciate these things. You also dont need it when you want to learn guitar. Its not useless to have interest in history, but interest in history of flamenco and understanding and/or doing flamenco are two different things.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 12:22:50

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to runner)

First of all I don't really wanna get involved wit this mainly off topic discussion..
I probably shouldn't have posted here..

quote:

But Florian and Stu, it seems you also can afford the time to post extensively, often even more extensively than I. That time could be spent in enriching your own understanding of what flamenco was, once upon a time, for a century or more, through reading and listening

What do you know about how I should spend my time away from the foro????

apart from what I told you previously which was...Playing, listening, Singing flamenco. I do actually enjoy reading about flamenco and watching videos and live flamenco. Infact as much flamenco related stuff as I can.

quote:

I am strictly an aficionado (no secret there)

Perhaps you could enrich your understanding by playing, dancing or singing instead of just reading/listening??? or maybe you do?? I don't know and wouldn't presume to.

With every post I make, I am also reading the wealth of information available on and through this site. so I consider time spent here, discussing with and learning from other aficionados, quite valuable in my understanding of flamenco.

Stu

Ps. none of this was written in anger, just simple counter points to your post. no offence intended.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 12:37:15

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to runner)

quote:

Florian and Stu, it seems you also can afford the time to post extensively, often even more extensively than I. That time could be spent in enriching your own understanding of what flamenco was, once upon a time, for a century or more, through reading and listening. Hence it is difficult for you to explain away--if not ignorance, then lack of interest in reading and listening to older flamenco, by saying that it takes time away from your guitar. ¿Verdad?

Well Runner if everyone did that there would be no Foro...yesterday i played 10 hours all up for workshops..rehershals, lessons, accompanied a dancer in her rehershals for a festival and when i came home i had to transcribe the acompanying chords to a cantinas...

this place is my relaxing time...my get away..i can do it in between exercising..

who says i dont listen to old flamenco ? u can listen to music and still be here u know..

is one thing to read about it its another to be in the midlle of it..because u read a couple of books about it try to resist seeing yourself as more aware than the ones who practice it..they have a different..more hands on prespective of it..

beeing fully read about it is a luxury only an afficionado who dosent have to practice 8 hours a day can afford...and when i play in front of this afficionado i will not be appreciated for my knolodge of the flamenco history but for what i do while playing..

so this is the way i see it...

Another point i acctualy do read up on flamenco, any chance i get.. i just dont like to argue here on other peoples speculations...i take it all aboard but i realise its theories, personal opinions, even if it is written in a book..i dont use it as religion..i only argue about things where i feel like i know what i am talking about..

for everything u think you know i can find you a self proclaimed expert to disagree with you convincingly..so ? ...i just practice and let afficionados "be right"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 13:07:20

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

I bet even Paco doesnt know that much about all the theoretical stuff as many other flamenco specialists.

I read he didn't learn to read notes until the concierto and didn't know much theory until he was with the trio.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 14:07:20

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Arash)

Deniz, you have identified many of my goals--I will affirm all the ones you have listed. You say, because music conveys emotion, you don't need history to appreciate it. I agree, but my experience has always been that the more one knows about any art, skill, activity, including especially its history, the greater one's capacity to enjoy it, and to perform it authentically. I've found that there are many people now involved in flamenco, though, who are unaware of, or not interested in, what flamenco has been for a century or more. For them, "flamenco" is what their peer group plays and listens to and says is flamenco. I mentioned previously that, on some other flamenco forums, newcomers to "flamenco" think that it is the Gypsy Kings, rumbas, castanets, and guitar hypertechnique. I'm just attempting to retain the integrity of the meaning of the term flamenco by getting people to realize that this art has a past, a long past that we would do well to remain in touch with. It distresses me to read over and over people's setting up their first-hand experience with today's "flamenco" in opposition to listening to and reading about its past, as if the two were opposed. Some say they don't have the time; others say they don't need to know flamenco's history to perform it or enjoy it; others say that because authors disagree, there's no point to reading about something--but these attitudes are not constructive, IMO, for the long-term health of this art. It is impossible to know "too much" about flamenco (or anything), despite opinions to the contrary.

Florian and Stu, I do not mean to prescribe to anybody how to spend their time, or how better to spend their time, in doing flamenco. Everybody's time budget is their own. But it really doesn't absorb a lot of time, over the course of a year or whatever, to read a book or two about flamenco--and if you've already done so, so much the better. Peace!

runner

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 16:31:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to runner)

quote:

if not ignorance, then lack of interest in reading and...

If you were to ask me to define the meaning of the words "ignorance" and "apathy", I would tell you "I don't know and I don't care"... as I happily strum my guitar.

Ok my comic relief is over.

Tientos tangos- I am fully aware of many of their similarities AND DIFFERENCES. I am also aware that I am partially engaged in some sort of "argument" or difference of view point (as you stated "Ricardo thinks....." but read Pohren...), with someone who doesn't recognize the performances of Remedios Amaya and Aurora Vargas in the movie "Flamenco" to be exemplary tangos (presumably because of some historical connection to tientos that is missing?????) At the risk of sounding like the "snob" that this entire thread was started about, I am stuck wondering how to continue with this? All I can say is if it must be this connection you need, then I will say it is still THERE you are just not seeing it for some reason. The problem is not so much the connection itself, but the reason you can't make that connection.

quote:

but these attitudes are not constructive, IMO, for the long-term health of this art.

Well, seems you mean for the preservation of what you perceive to be the artform, the classical form. Once again you are simply drawing a line and won't accept any others cross it and call it "flamenco" anymore. Nothing wrong with that, but as before my point is that line is in different places for different people. Just a guess, but you may find many folks with lines drawn at PACO DE LUCIA, whatever that means, and have same views as yourself, over at the "old school forum".

Once again I reiterate classical flamenco has been preserved on recordings, and that IS an important historical document all should study (you constantly lump together listening and reading) But again I feel listening is actively learning music, vs reading critics and categorizations of music. Even still, it is not the complete picture of the artform for sure.

Ricardo "the snob guitarist of the day".

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2009 23:12:23

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Arash)

Ricardo, I agree that we've gone about as far as we can (or should) go with this discussion. If I've been able to accomplish a couple of things, my work here will not have been in vain--

To raise in people's minds a certain thirst for rigor in what they consider to be flamenco. Just because the CD album covers, and all our best pals and guitar heroes say it's flamenco, doesn't necessarily mean that it is.

To foster the certainty that flamenco didn't appear yesterday, but is an established, documented art form with a written and recorded history that we should be knowledgable about in order to best preserve its integrity.

That discussions about flamenco can and should be conducted in a calm, even friendly, atmosphere. As a non-playing aficionado, I realize that I could fill libraries with what I don't know about the technical aspects of playing guitar, whether it's flamenco guitar or "flamenco" guitar. But there is a lot we all could learn about this art we love, even if we think we know all we "need" to know.

runner (eagerly awaiting the next topic

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2009 5:58:49

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Arash)

By the way. I, of course, read Pohren's book, and couldn't help noticing that his writing tends to be a little too subjective. Especially when he discusses the new generation of guitarists. With all due respect, I wouldn't base my judgment of today's flamenco on that book. I would base it on my own ears.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2009 9:55:40

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to runner)

runner, its appreiable that you want to show clueless guys what flamenco is. But you dont have to make it complicated and go 1000 years backwards. If there is anybody you want to show flamenco, just give him the link to the Jesus de Rosario thread on the foro. The samples are downloadable for guests too. Its the fastest way to "get" flamenco IMO (through ear and feeling). Its all there. Or maybe they dont get it. Thats of course good too.
Only if they have further interest in flamenco, then it makes sense to discuss about other, i would say, secondary aspects of flamenco. I dont know anybody who dislikes flamenco but is interested in the history of it? I cant see a sense there, and im sure its also not the case with you?

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2009 10:12:59

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

By the way. I, of course, read Pohren's book, and couldn't help noticing that his writing tends to be a little too subjective. Especially when he discusses the new generation of guitarists. With all due respect, I wouldn't base my judgment of today's flamenco on that book. I would base it on my own ears.

Your such a "snob".

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2009 13:56:30

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Why are guitarists such snobs? (... (in reply to Arash)

Grisha, Donn Pohren made sure that it was not a secret how he felt about the direction flamenco was taking. He didn't like it. You do. But it was, I'm guessing, stimulating reading for you and (again, guessing) you probably found out some things you didn't previously know, and rethought some things you thought you already did know.

Deniz, like you I also don't know anybody who doesn't like flamenco but who is interested in its history. Makes no sense to me either. My experience has been that the people who like flamenco a whole lot also know something of its history, and are eager to learn more. Leaving aside his unfortunate history here, our late compañero J........ loveth flamenco dearly, and his knowledge of it is profound.

runner

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2009 16:35:25