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Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area
Is using a guitar-support "un-f...
As I was reading the responses to sara's inquiry about smaller guitars, I started thinking about my own situation. I find it more comfortable to play my flamenca in a classical guitar position with the neck pointed up at a 45+ degree angle.
There's nothing untraditional about that position. It does, in fact, make the guitar easier to play and many tocaors use that position, with or without a footstool.
I have however opted to use an ErgoPlay Tröster guitar support which not only can set the guitar at an angle but also raise it. Using this, I'm able to keep both feet on the ground and my spine straight.
Guitar supports are commonly accepted among classical guitarists but I haven't seen them used by many flamenco guitarists. Are they viewed as somewhat "un-flamenco"?
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RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
quote:
There's nothing untraditional about that position. It does, in fact, make the guitar easier to play and many tocaors use that position, with or without a footstool.
Otherwise known as the old guy position. It works for me, too.
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
This tool is for people who are a bit strange (except the two people who wrote in this threat before m ;.) ). To force the so called "flamenco position" is just weird.
Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco It is strange to see someone using this device even in classical music performances.
Less strange, these days. I've seen more young players using them in recitals. I'm not that surpised given how comfortable one can be using them.
There's a more discreet device called the Gitano which I've seen used by one tocaor. It folds flat when not in use and is made of metal and leather.
The biggest complaint about these supports tends to be their methods of attachment which are either by clamps or suction cups. The latter can be unfriendly to french-polished guitars.
Classical guitarist Julian Bream switched from a footstool to using a Dynarette which is a padded support. You can see him using it in this video:
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RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
I think what Julian Bream used there would be the best option for shellac guitars. There's no way I'd lick a suction cup and slap a spit 'n' slobber soaked rubber doohickey on my guitar, that's just gross.
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
I’ve never heard of anyone complaining of back problems due to electric guitar since most electrics are thin-bodied. Stephen Hill is making a practice guitar for PDL which also appears to be thin-bodied. A Cordoba 45 or 55FCWE thin-bodied flamenco (electric) guitar could be useful for daily practice.
Having to reach over and ruin your posture to play a wide body guitar seems to be the cause of back pain for many players—and Oscar Herrero mentions back problems as a common issue for guitarists..
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
I attended a Paco Pena Flamenco Dance Company performance about a month ago and was surprised to see Paco using a guitar support similar to the one in ChiyoDad's photo. The support over his leg was curved less than that one, but it otherwise looked similar.
Years ago I learned to hold a guitar in the traditional-flamenco 45-degree upward position with the sound-box resting freely on top of my right leg. That position is very comfortable for me. I used to even play classical music holding the guitar that way. The high neck-angle makes it much easier to keep left-hand fingers pointing nearly at right-angles to the guitar neck than if the neck is lowered to the position typically used by PDL and most jazz, rock, and folk players. I find it impossible to make long fret reaches with the neck down level that are relatively easy to span with the neck up high.
Furthermore, my shoulders are level and my neck is straight with the guitar-neck high, but my shoulders are slanted and my neck is cocked with the guitar-neck level. My neck and back both ache if play very long with the guitar neck down. I often wonder why most modern players use such an obviously awkward position when it is so easy to learn to hold a guitar in the traditional way.
The traditional 45-degree upward position takes a little getting used to. I remember the guitar didn't feel very stable in that position when I started using it years ago, but now it is very stable and natural and the short period learning to play that way provided big long-term rewards.
Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to bb)
quote:
ORIGINAL: bb
I attended a Paco Pena Flamenco Dance Company performance about a month ago and was surprised to see Paco using a guitar support similar to the one in ChiyoDad's photo. The support over his leg was curved less than that one, but it otherwise looked similar.
It might have been the earlier version of the ErgoPlay. The new models were just recently released.
Well, if Paco Peña uses it, I guess I can now feel less "un-flamenco" about using mine.
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
Well, I´ll go directly to the question:
Of course its considered to be unflamenco to use a support. Thats a fact. Flamencos are VERY conservative. When Paco started to use the cross leg position it was considered unflamenco as well.
I´ve used a Gitano, but on the right leg. It was good for me, but shellack doesnt like suction cups and the gitano is made for classicals because the suction cups are wider than a flamenco guitar. I got tired of always having to take some weird item with me so I found out another way of holding the guitar.
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
quote:
I got tired of always having to take some weird item with me
This is why I'm not interested. What's next--a non-slip mat for the opposite leg? Can you imagine trying to put these two items in place and then picking up the guitar? Of course an audience will always have questions about these items, too? Seems like an all around pain in the neck. Maybe it will save your back during practice sessions, but to use it in public could be more trouble than it's worth.
Posts: 2699
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
I've never seen anyone using this kind of thing and personally I think any extra contraption to help you hold the guitar is undesirable.
In a romantic, ideal world, it would just be guitarist and his guitar. End of story. your body has enough ways to do things to find a good position without the need for extras. Like anders said, one doesnt wanna carry around a bag full of extra kit. Well I dont anyways.
that said I do own a foot stool but rarely use it. but thats as far as i go.
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
quote:
My understanding is that Paco de Lucia was the one who popularized the wide cross-legged position.
I didn't know that. Some teachers still encourage you to sit in that way but it's not great for your back.
Also v. unladylike - I recorded a bit of playing recently which I was going to upload here, then I had a look at my sitting position and thought, no, that's not the sort of video I want to upload onto the internet!!
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
Trying to adopt the traditionalposition....ugg.
It's not as easy as it would seem.
Several problems I'm having; one is that the guitar always feels like it's going to go sailing across the room as it gets sqeezed out between my right leg and right forearm....
the second is that I find the guitar wants to fall down to the usual position that I use. (sitting flat on my right leg)
The third is that I have trouble seeing what I am playing in the first position..(which seems weird). It is definitely better for high position playing though.
A fourth problem, which was completely unexpected to me, is that if I use this position for any more than a couple of minutes I start to feel a strain in my left shoulder. (as I have to hold my left arm a lot higher)
I'm not sure if I am just not doing it right or if I just need to keep working on it, but so far the traditionalposition feels awkward and I can't play well using it.
I can see the advantage to my back because it's much easier to sit up straight using this position, it's also easier to play up the neck....if I can just keep the darn thing steady. *=*
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Wannabee)
This possibly isn't going to be helpful advice but......
As I work in the health service I asked a physiotherapist I was working with about sitting positions. Her view is that our backs are not made to stay in ANY position without moving for a long time, so as far as back health is concerned, we probably ought to vary positions fairly frequently. Of course, that probably wouldn't look very 'flamenco'.....
@Pimientito do you have a professional view on this?
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Ailsa)
Well over the years I have come to the conclusion that the best way to avoid these type of problems is to not play the guitar!!
...or if you do, make sure that you dont practice.
Practically,its not an easy problem to solve partly because every person is different with varying amounts of suppleness in their limbs and back and everyone plays differently, some people with more strength than others.
Its also not a new problem. Classical guitarists use (or used to use)a footstool to raise the left leg so the the guitar sits at a 45 degree angle on the left leg. Even Aguado had back problems because it raises the pelvis higher on the left side than on the right and puts an S-curve into the spine. Bear in mind that in Aguados day (1800s) guitars were smaller and so it really was necessary to raise it somehow. A guitar support or even a small cusion on the leg puts the guitar in the same position without putting a curve in your back.
The traditional flamenco position with the guitar on the right leg pointing 45 degrees up is Ok ergonomically but this only really allows you to play strongly in the first few positions on the fingerboard.
Pacos idea was to have the guitar horizontal which gives access to the higher frets without involving the left shoulder so much and more importantly, it means the right hand fingers can pull against the strings at 90 degrees evenly on all six strings. Thats the secret of the power of his tecnique. This can not be acheived with the guitar at a 45 degree angle. Unfortunately, its not great for your back and even Paco has complained of back problems from over practicing.
Another thing is that guitarist tend to lean over the guitar and twist slightly toward the neck and this puts a lot of strain on the upper ribs on the opposite side (ie the right side of a right handed player) This can cause neck pain, headaches and also lead to tendonitis in the hands and forearms.
Finally i would say that all you 20 something year olds are not going to notice these effects as someone in their 30s and 40s
quote:
I find the guitar wants to fall down to the usual position that I use. (sitting flat on my right leg)
Ok, well firstly the guitar need to be perpendicular and flat next to your body. There should be no gap between you and the guitar. The curve of the body fits hard up into the curve of your right hip. You have to sit up to aheive this. The right forearm rests on top of the guitar (not on the guitar top) and pushes the guitar slightly down and inwards towards your groin. This holds the guitar snug against you. You still have full movement of your wrist and hand. The guitar should not move anywhere like this.
To acheive all this the first most useful thing I can suggest if you are serious about playing a lot is GO OUT AND BUY A DECENT CHAIR. This solves half of all practise problems. Sitting on the edge of a bed or a sofa etc. is asking for trouble. An adjustable office chair without arms or a high backed leather upholstered dining chair will be perfect. It should be high enough to allow you to sit with you knees slightly above 90 degrees (never below) and support your back.
Get up and walk around every half hour during practice. Your physio was right Ailsa. Sitting puts a lot of strain on your low back and it can tighten up easily if you lose track of the time.Warm up with simple pieces and exercises for 10 minutes before tackling the difficult piece you were working on the day before. Stop playing if anything hurts. You will to learn the difference between a muscle ache which is normal and an overstretch or overuse pain which is not.
Personally, I like the Paco way of holding the guitar because of its advantage to the right hand and I bought a 200 dollar ergonomic chair to practise in which has pretty much solved my back problem. Cusions, supports and stools have not been helpful. Even if they make the guitar more ergonomic...you sacrifice right hand power in my opinion.
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
There should be no gap between you and the guitar. The curve of the body fits hard up into the curve of your right hip.
One teacher I went to told me to hold the guitar flat against my hipbone - I still do that and it feels really secure there. Of course if you've been drinking too much beer you may not be able to find your hipbone.......
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
Also v. unladylike - I recorded a bit of playing recently which I was going to upload here, then I had a look at my sitting position and thought, no, that's not the sort of video I want to upload onto the internet!!
LOL!
(I'd still like to see it though... )
I don't have any choice in the matter. When I was about 7 or 8 I broke my hip, so I can't bend it flat enough in that "Paco" position. I have to raise my RH foot when playing on a normal 18" chair, but I'm most comfortable sitting on a sofa without any footstool etc. I notice that some guitarists like putting their RH heel under the spar on those "Spanish chairs", which has the same effect as a footstool. The "Traditional" position is the most flexi IMO as you can sit anywhere and the guitar is always in the same position, but it's difficult to get used to unless you start early.
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
The traditional flamenco position with the guitar on the right leg pointing 45 degrees up is Ok ergonomically but this only really allows you to play strongly in the first few positions on the fingerboard.
I don't understand why you believe that. We all have different body dimensions and there even are slight differences in the dimensions of our guitars. However, I can play high-fret positions more-easily with a guitar neck pointing up 45-degrees.
quote:
... it means the right hand fingers can pull against the strings at 90 degrees evenly on all six strings.
I don't understand why you believe that either. It is necessary to twist the wrist down to put the right-hand fingers at 90-degree angles to the strings with a guitar neck in the low position, whereas with the neck up high the right-hand fingers naturally point 90-degrees relative to the strings.
quote:
GO OUT AND BUY A DECENT CHAIR.
This is something I agree with you about. We happen to have an extra dining room chair that has no arms and that is a perfect playing chair for me. However, I used to have back and neck pain after guitar playing for long periods with other chairs that had higher seats.
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
Thanks for the reply. I'll try your recommendations, but I'm not sure I understand. Maybe it's because my guitar is not a real flamenco, so the body is a bit large.
Anyway, I'll keep working on it.
About back problems:
2 things that have helped me are "hindu pushups" and the "warrior" pose.
I was going to post links to show these things but for some reason I was blocked. You should be able to find explanations and or videos of these on youtube or googe.
I find that even 5 - 10 minutes a day doing these things really helps my lower back. I hope this helps someone else.
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
I think that there are a lot of people who are concerned wether this is flamenco or that is flamenco, and all we need is to love the music and try to contribute in what ever way that we can. Otherwise nothing seems to move forward and nothing new and exciting happens. Art and music becomes stagnant when we are so concerned with what the 'rules' are that we forget to be creative about it. Therefore we can do what we want, eaven in situations like this where you are wondering if it is a flamenco crime to use a guitar support? Come on man lighten up......as for me a lot of rules get passed around and all it does is bring me down. We have to experiment to be origional. That is why I seem to have lost ineterest in the foro all together. All the while we may be thinking we are keeping the flamenco pure, when all we are doing is the same old thing. And maybe I don't belong here on the foro, but at least I did try. And isn't that enough?
Your guitar support is fine, just like a lot of other things...... Gary
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to bb)
quote:
ORIGINAL: bb
quote:
The traditional flamenco position with the guitar on the right leg pointing 45 degrees up is Ok ergonomically but this only really allows you to play strongly in the first few positions on the fingerboard.
I don't understand why you believe that.
quote:
... it means the right hand fingers can pull against the strings at 90 degrees evenly on all six strings.
I don't understand why you believe that either.
Its not really about belief. I am talking more about the right hand here. Yes you can access the upper finger board nicely with the guitar at 45 degrees, but you would agree that classical players do not and can not play with anything like the power of the flamenco players. Paco de lucias technique is not in any way accidental. There is not one single finger stroke or technique that hasnt been carefully analysed and improved since he was 5 years old. Its all about strength and even-ness. The maximum volume of the string comes when you pluck it at 90 degrees. Its easier to apply an even pressure on all 6 strings with the guitar horizontal. You get the same pressure on the 6th string as the first. Generally speaking, that doesnt happen with the guitar at an angle. This principle has been applied to rasgueo, picado, alzapua etc. Its not that you cant play the guitar in another position, and for simple falsetas it doesnt matter so much, but later it gets harder and it wont sound like paco! As the guitar has become more complex, the traditionalposition reveals limitatations and so it has been altered....even if thats not so good for your posture!
Wannabee - if you are doing stretches and exercises a couple of times a day, it helps enormously...its just that most people dont!!
I was born with a cronical backdesease and have to sit with both legs on the ground. The Paco position is to hard for me and a foot stool is worse. I dont like carrying weird stuff with me (read sitting supports) so whats left for me is the trad. position which is good enough for me.
Now. there´s a tendency here to think and argue that trad position is only for oldstyle flamenco. I mainly play old style so I´m not the best one to argue, but I play other styles as well.
It´s been said by Pimiento that trad position is 45 degrees. Why??? I dont play 45degrees. I dont like to play 45 degrees it makes the left hand to high and the right hand to angled to be powerfull. On this agree, but there are other ways.
As always here on this forum there´s a tendency to overgeneralize things. That doesnt help anything. I mean paco and pepe plays the way they play and the rest play our way.
The most important thing IMHO is to relax and have the right angles on your guitar or hands. The rest, how you obtain these angles is personal and saying that only one way will take you to a certain goal is restricting yourself.
The same discussion in the electric guitar world. How high the guitar, where to put your left hand thumb. I mean Hendrix played quite well in his akward way??? Same with classical violin. playing with or without a support. Having no weight or some weight in you left hand. I mean both Isaac Stern and Perlman are known to be fantastic performers even though they have their own way of doing things which are not "correct school"
Back to work. All this playing and typing takes time
Posts: 6440
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
I mean Hendrix played quite well in his akward way???
You mean with his teeth? Getting the right position for yourself is the most important thing - never mind what others do. I had a disc removed from my lower back some years ago and cannot sit for too long in any position, which has really put me off practising at all
RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Ailsa)
quote:
As I work in the health service I asked a physiotherapist I was working with about sitting positions. Her view is that our backs are not made to stay in ANY position without moving for a long time, so as far as back health is concerned, we probably ought to vary positions fairly frequently.
This is what Ricardo writes every time this subject comes up and there's definitely something to it. I've seen a lot of guitarists who'll switch positions often during a concert. I find myself doing it too playing for dance classes.
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