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How to avoid over gripping the guitar? I usually sit Paco cross legged style and there is something I don't understand with it. When fretting anything you exert a (hopefully minimal) force on the strings, enough that the fretted note sounds good at least. For this to work there has to come from somewhere a force in the opposite direction (not the thumb) making the neck relatively stable otherwise it would swing backwards under the fretting force. To achive this I seem to be pinching the guitar with my right arm somewhere near the elbow with my chest working as a pivot such that if I release the fretted notes the neck swings forward some centimeters. I suspect this might be wrong but also wonder if it is not somewhat unavoidable.
The injury is perhaps unrelated, or perhaps not. The left hand thumb is sore, again, from over gripping, which seems to relate to having an inadequate level of supplety / flexibility / dexterity. It also seems to feedback into playing with a compromised technique that only makes things worse. Ok, so it's gonna have to be go back to going supper slow and scrutinising every milimeter of movement. Again. But is there not a way to break out of that cycle?
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
It's likely not possible to give you good specific advice without observing you in action for a while. So a good teacher would probably be the best resource. But I don't know whether you have one where you live.
I hold the guitar differently from you when playing flamenco--the old style with the lower bout resting on the right thigh and the upper right arm providing the anchor.
The usual problem with this position is too much tension in the right arm. You have to learn to relax the right arm, and let just the weight of the arm provide the stabilizing force. It takes a while to learn, and for a tall person like me it often involves putting the right foot on a footstool to elevate the thigh enough.
I have no idea how tall you are, but I have seen people using the "Paco position" use a footstool under the right foot, including, if memory serves, Paco himself.
What's the point? Working by yourself, about your only resource is to analyze your posture. If you can find a muscle that is in constant tension holding the guitar, find a way to relax it. You may have to make slight changes in the way you hold the instrument.
Holding the guitar in a relaxed position, without any constant tension is one solution. Another piece of advice that I don't apply as much, but which is regularly given here, is to change your position fairly often. That way tension doesn't build up to the point of injury.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
I used to have a similar problem, the death grip left hand.
A few things to start thinking about. How about looking at a guitar elevation pillow under the lower bout between the guitar and your thigh? There are commercially made versions, but you can make one yourself with some foam rubber. Or an old t-shirt folded up and held together with rubber bands. Put the rolled up t-shirt under the lower bout on your thigh and see is elevating the guitar makes it more secure.
My cello teacher worked on my left hand over use by doing something very direct, and comical sounding, but it was effective, like it cured my problem almost instantly.
She stood next to me while I played and she put her index finger between the neck of the instrument and my thumb. I played and when ever I tensed up she yelled "OUCH!" and I continued and she said OUCH!. She stopped me and said relax the hand , then we continued and every time I tensed up she yelled OUCH in my ear.
You would think that would be more funny than effective, but it worked. She was a student of ....well never mind, I spare you the back story. Maybe that gives you an idea.
Play with a cejilla on three or four where the guitar is easier to handle.
One more cello trick. Hold the guitar in the middle of your legs like a cello. Without putting the thumb in contact with the neck, hang the fingertips of the left hand off the strings, apply the finger tips and pull into the fingerboard, but pull to your left. Don't push straight down, but hang on the string with the thumb unengaged, loose and riding naturally 3/4" or so behind the neck. Just hang on the strings pulling them to the frets with no squeeze pressure at all.
Feel what it is like to pull the strings to the board. Then put the guitar back in guitar playing position and feel the same situation, no thumb pressing only bringing the strings to the board by gripping them with fingertips. Then try to make a sound picado or thumb with no thumb.
You can teach yourself with ideas like this Teach yourself how it feels to make a sound with no thumb and then try to feel that way when you engage the thumb.
If any of them works for you let me know. I have a few other cello borrowed techniques for thumb problems. Also the book Pumping Nylon might have a few things to say about this touch issue.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
My advice is to try avoid repeating things when playing/practicing, I noticed this is the only time I had any strain (leading to wrist pain) when playing. So my suggestion would be try avoid repeating playing, such as repeating one falseta too much. If you vary your playing alot it could be that the left hand thumb will adjust by itself
Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
If you are having extreme problems you need somebody who can observe you as you play. If you can find an expert in Alexander technique in your area they would be worth the time and money for a couple of sessions. Preferably someone who also plays an instrument
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
You could also be hyper extending your thumb. Are you arching your thumb backward and locking it? If you are you could be hyper extending the thumb back. Locking up joints becomes like a feedback loop of stress if you can find that is happening you can fix it.
I had a terrible problem with left hand tension when I was younger but I worked on it an made it out. Just remember it is possible a don't despair.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
Concerning posture when sitting cross legged, I don't think you should need to depend on using the guitar body as a fulcrum for left hand pressure. For me, it's important to find a seat that allows my right crossed leg to be high enough to almost balance the guitar in my lap- with the headstock pointing up and out from my chest. The left hand doesn't have to do any work in supporting the neck.
Bar chords tips: The position of the left thumb on the back of the neck is important. For example, the pressure needed doesn't come from squeezing your thumb and index directly together between the neck. Instead, the thumb should be a little lower on the neck and the index pushed in and up - sort of like a fulcrum in this case... The thumb provides the anchor. It can be small details like this, and you have to go back and unlearn bad habits.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
Thanks guys for your replies - I find these issues tricky and your various inputs are really appreciated.
@Richard : I started out with the traditional posture but only use it occasionally now. I saw an Adam del Monte video recently where he mentions the pinching arm issue as a reason he switched to an ergonomic support. I do have the Flamenco Loco ergonomic support which I quite like and often use on my basher blanca - it mimics the trad posture somewhat. It does give a good change of posture, but it's sucker pads are not compatible with the finish of my preferred guitar. The hook & strap idea of Ruphus looks very tempting. There's no good teachers here, but I will be in Berkeley in April, so any recommendations for teachers not too far away would be great.
@estebanana : the pillow idea sounds promising. I think the main issue I have with the Paco posture is that I can never get the guitar to stay still in that posture all by itself - there has to be some bit of me somewhere stopping it swinging forward. A cleverly designed pillow could alter the guitar's natural resting angle freeing the musician to focus on music and not supporting a piece of wood. Great tip from your cello teacher - both my kids are learning cello and the death grip is one battle that their fantastic teacher has declared she will not be fighting with children. It's been me that has to repetitively remind them not to lock out the thumb - the OUCH trick looks like I can finally do this without everyone suffering a sense of humour loss - MUCHAS GRACIAS!!! Actually each time in the past that my thumb has become painfully problematic I have had to re-start over again by playing very slow without the thumb - but the bad habits just keep coming back - I think that is related to general stiffness in the hands (that arises from not playing guitar enough) promoting poor technique. Pumping Nylon is often mentioned here - sounds like it's time I get a copy. And yes, the hyper extension of the thumb is something of an issue that features more and more in the downward spiral towards injury.
@tele : good point on the over repeating. For some reason I find basic chords in por medio to be quite prone to inducing the hyper-extension of the thumb that Stephen mentioned. I'll look into identifying which are the most thumb-friendly palos
@Jason : what you write is very interesting. If your left hand is not supporting the neck then what is? The only possibility is the upper part of the right arm. Watching Paco on this classic video, at 3:35 he adjusts his right arm, lifting it off the top of his guitar, initially the neck does not move because he is still holding down the bar, when he releases the bar the guitar swings forward a little distance (watch the headstock at the edge of the screen) - this is what I describe in my original post. It seems unavoidable with this posture to release the left hand and not have some swing forward, the trick is to somehow minimise that swing - I've not had much success with raising the left foot via a stool or lower chair, but perhaps Stephan's pillow idea can help here.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
How thick is the neck of your guitar? You might benefit from a thicker neck. Most people think that thiner necks are easier to play and it is a matter of personal preference. However an individuals hand mechanics play a part. If the neck is too thin for you you may be over reaching with the thumb.
For some players a girthyer neck means less clamping and reach with the thumb to pull the strings down. The thin neck thing comes out of electric playing, which is a different animal altogether and strings are not as hard to pull to the board. On a classical or flamenco, the thin neck might seem like the solution to difficult to handle string tension, but in fact the hand has more strength before the thumb is hyper extended to the fingers and palm. We have opposable thumbs, but we do not grab an apple by arching the thumb backwards, the most power in the grip comes from the thumb being bend inward at the joints and before the thumb touches the palm.
When we pull the strings to the guitar fingerboard we back arch the thumb a tiny bit, this is not how we power grip a stick, spear or apple. So thinner necks encourage a back arched thumb and if too thin force the thumb to extend towards the palm so far that it goes to the point of diminishing returns on hand strength. So thin necks appear easier to play, but some hands are better or stronger with a slightly thicker neck.
Something to perhaps investigate.
You can mock up a thing to increase neck thickness. A swath of cardboard corregated regular box cardboard 1/8" thick. Cut a piece 2" wide by 9" long ad use light tack masking tape to tape it to the back of the guitars neck where your thumb engages the neck. You know, like the lower 2/3rds of the neck. Kind of mold it into a hollow D shaped thing with your fingers and tape it on. It will not be perfect, but usually about the thickness of cardboard will be enogh for you to feel a difference in thumb excursion, or the distance the thumb must travel to apply pressure. But remember there is squeezing and pulling, The hand/arm natural fall also bears down into the string.
If you put your arm out in front of you at shoulder height and then just let it drop to your side there is energy there in the drop. Imagine that energy and free fall pulling the string to the fingerboard.
Hold your right arm across your chest and touch the tip of the middle finger to your left collar bone. Reach for your right wrist with your left hand and engage it like it is the guitar neck. take a breathe, let it out and let the left arm and finger tips fall into the "neck" made by right wrist. This is pulling the strings to the fingerboard. Look Ma, no thumbs! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You also might want to just try the Abel Carlevaro sitting position. And you kids might be into it too if they are tall or getting taller. The Carlevaro position is EXCELLENT for cellists who are tall and lanky. The same position for cellists is explained in Victor Sazer's book "New Directions in Cello Playing" you can find it in many public libraries. and the Abel Carlevaro sitting may not look very flamenco and uses a foot stool, but it might be something to try out. It is more dynamic than Paco sitting and better for your back. Sazer's book is for cellists, but how he examines balancing the instrument might give you some good ideas about solving you balance problem with guitar.
I am very pleased to hear your kids are studying the cello and that you can give that to them. That is wonderful. A bit disturbing to hear the teacher is not fully engaged in the analysis of hand tension issues!
Tell your children to breathe when they shift. Bringing the breath into the playing, that really helps over the long haul. BTW do you by chance hold your breath when you play?
Wow, if a teacher is not minding childeren's left hand tightness problems they might not be so wonderful. Just saying. Look up Irene Sharp and Margaret Rowells' ideas about teaching kids. Let me know by PM if you want more information about left hand problems and cello playing, I went through it. The problem began cause my first teacher allowed me to continue to play with a death grippy left hand for a long time. As an early teen, if I had met teacher who fixed the issue in a few minutes, I might have become a cellist. By the time I founder her I was already to old to continue in college as a cello major.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
Dud, I have injured my thumb from playing too hard. It taught me to focus on relaxing the thumb and how little pressure you really need. It's more just support often times and let the fingers do the heavy lifting so to speak.
You can see the neck swinging around. My point is - Yes the guitar is stabilized by the right arm. And yes, I might even use the fulcrum pressure a tiny bit on bar chord stretches without thinking about it. but try get into a position where the guitar is balanced on your lap. Don't depend on your left hand for support. Get comfortable by getting your right leg up higher if you can- past 90 degrees. I'm 5'4 and I need a short seat to be comfortable. Not always possible when not at home on the couch.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
I know Paco is Paco but there's something absolutely not ergonomic about playing with one leg over the other. I'm pretty strict with the traditionalposition, bottom fat end on my right leg. I had a similar pain in my hand leading up to my thumb and my teacher at the time had me learn to play with my thumb out(pointed at the head) and it fixed my problem. I said "I'm practicing A LOT so my hand hurts" and he said "if anything hurts your doing something wrong.". I was indeed pinching too much. I'd stop with that leg over the other and try to get comfortable with tradition position. My body is the fulcrum and my right arm slightly pushes the fretboard into my fingers. Try all kinds of things. Just be truly comfortable is the most important.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Leñador)
I like to use both positions - trad missionary and cowboy cross legged. Cross legged frees up the right arm a bit and doesn't feel as cramped for me. My point about the fulcrum is that if you do it to much you will loose control like you stated - and that is too much
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
Well, Dud, your problem has elicited a myriad responses and recommendations, so I might as well add mine, for what it's worth, which will probably buy you a cup of coffee sans doughnut.
I don't think it is how you position the guitar or how you hold it when you play. There are several ways to hold it in position, and they have all been mentioned here: Paco's way, the traditional lower bout on the thigh with the raised neck, the normal way with foot rest, etc. Since flamencos have been using them all forever without major problems, I think your problem is how you position your left hand on the neck, particularly how you position the thumb on the back of the neck and the amount of pressure applied. I cannot advise what exactly you are doing and how you should correct it, but I do think that is where your problem lies, and it is there that you need to experiment and find the position and pressure that best accommodates your left hand and thumb, regardless how you hold the guitar in position when playing.
Bill
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Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
Lots of different thoughts here. I say it's not about your guitar neck thickness, nor the posture, no straps, no stands, no pillows etc....its' simply about your HANDS. Try this. Play fast, fast as normal or as you can, but....do it extremely softly. In fact let your fingers barely press. It can sound muted, but keep up your speed. Later on you can experiment with dynamics of the right hand, louder or softer etc. But keep the pressure of the left hand deliberately weak. Eventually after you get used to manipulating dynamics with a wimpy left hand, you can gradually add a bit more pressure until the notes actually sound normal.
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
Try going back to the beginners' exercise. Rest a left hand finger against a string, but don't press the string against the fret. Play the string with your right hand:"Thunk."
Increase the left hand pressure just a little, and play it again:"Thunk."
Keep on increasing the left hand pressure little by little until you get: "Ding! bzzzz"
You're almost there. Just a little more pressure : "Ding!"....no buzz.
That's it. That's all the pressure you ever need to exert. Well...you may end up having to exert a little more pressure in some awkward left hand configurations, but not much.
From now on concentrate on how the tips of your fingers feel. In both hands, for that matter. As soon as you feel the pressure building up, try to relax a little.
And work on getting the force for your left hand fingers from somewhere beside your thumb. Endless discussions arise about exactly where this comes from, but you need to relax your left arm as much as is reasonable, and some of the left hand fretting force can come from the weight of your left arm, but the main point is to minimize the force from your thumb, for several practice sessions. Then you can go back to using a reasonable amount of thumb pressure, but pay attention and don't lock up.
Move your thumb around for each fingering configuration until you find the point that puts your hand in its least stressful state. Remember to put your thumb there for that hand configuration.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
quote:
Ok, so it's gonna have to be go back to going supper slow and scrutinising every milimeter of movement. Again. But is there not a way to break out of that cycle?
If you´ve done that many times, then maybe thats the wrong way. And maybe your analytic brainwork only make thing worse. It sounds to me that you are not relaxing. You can use breathing exercises to relax when you have physical problems. But first you have to be able to observe when you are tense. So when you have found out when you are tense, stop, keep the hand where it is, close your eyes, breathe while you feel your hand and let the energy drop to relax. Its not more than a minut or so we are talking about. repeat some times and play. It takes time but as far as I know, its the fastest way. It may sound holistical but its not. I was taught technique decades ago when studying classical violin with a very non-holistical teacher. Its about working with body-memory and not with brain. He even used it for intonation exercises.
So instead of letting your brain try to analyze everything to death, listen to the body. It knows better, because its the body that hurts and not the brain
If you want to use a support with sucker pads on a French polished guitar, then you can put a piece of clear tapplate where its going to sit. Esthetically its not the nicest, but it works.
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
Question: if you sit down and put your right arm in playing position (and just leave the left hanging), I'm assuming the guitar is stable, yes? Then place your left hand in some chord position and press down to play it. Did you push the neck backwards (i.e. closer to you) by doing this? The only thing I can think of that would explain the "guitar swinging forward when releasing fretted notes" is that you are pressing down too hard with the left hand, so much so that you are creating tension in the guitar that is only released when you let go of the frets and the guitar then swings back to its stable position (it's sort of a domino effect, because by pushing down harder with the left hand, you then have to press down with the right arm to hold the guitar in position, whereas the mere weight of your arm should be enough to keep the guitar in position (no "pinching" needed, just resting the arm should be enough)) If I'm right about this, you should just pay attention at the original position of the guitar before placing your left hand and then see whether or not you are pushing the guitar backwards with your fretting hand. This would suggest that you're applying too much pressure with the left hand, which of course could be the cause of your injury (it's hard to have xami tensed up without the thumb tensing up as well..). In any event, all of the exercices the others have given seem on point to me. Relax, relax relax!
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RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo I say it's not about your guitar neck thickness, nor the posture, no straps, no stands, no pillows etc....its' simply about your HANDS.
You're at all not wrong Ricardo. In fact, I've tried much of the stuff suggested here, remembering to breath, playing muffled notes, adopting other postures (including not sitting at all). I think I've nailed the problem - I'm over-working (on a ****ing keyboard) and not practising guitar enough. That is the root cause of the injury.
No es muy flamenco. Eso es vida!
So dreams of advancing with flamenco guitar look to be a thing of the past in the Dudnote family right now. Nothing for it but to learn those letras and start playing like Manuel Molina
Drifting off topic, does anybody recognise any of those letras ? (I might as well get back to learning Spanish whilst the thumb's out).
RE: Posture woes (injured again) (in reply to Dudnote)
I get trouble with neck and shoulder pains after long practice sessions - it would help if I didn't have to look at what I was doing! Need more practice = more pain!!
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