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kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

Arpeggio exercise 

I am studying now a Granaína by Paco Serrano and I notice I am really bad at playing arpeggio's....and also my right hand coordination is not what is should be.
Very unstable and not convincing.

When I started I always kept my ringfinger on the soundboard and that seems to be a bad habbit now....

Now I found an exercise by Villalobos which is a nice one and it seems to be working.

---------------0---0----------------
-----------0-----0-----0------------
-------0-----0-------0-----0--------
---2-----2---------------2-----2----
-----2-----------------------2------
-0----------------------------------
-p-i-p-i-p-m-i-a-m-a-i-m-p-i-p-i----

Do you people have other recommendations in order to improve right hand coordination and arpeggio's?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2009 21:40:26
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to kozz

Have you got the basic patterns together really well? Try some basic patterns.

As well as PIMA and PAMI which you probably know, try 2 other combinations, the first starts PI and then AM, so all together PIAM.

The second starts PA and then IM, so all together PAIM.

And then there are 2 more combinations starting PM. The first is PMIA, and the second is PMAI.

to recap,

PIMA, PIAM,

PAMI, PAIM,

PMIA, PMAI

I like to work on really basic stuff like this as it's a really good base for doing more complex stuff. To really isolate the technique and work on just the right hand i also like to use really simple stuff with my left hand, like just a basic E chord/E shape. I do slide it up and down the neck a bit, but keep to that shape.

Another thing i do with it is to practise it with different rhythmic combinations, 1, 2, 3, and 4 notes per beat. Although 4 notes per beat is fastest, playing these 4 note patterns 3 notes per beat can be tricky to coordinate rhythmically.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2009 15:27:09
 
gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
 

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to kozz

Play lots and lots of classical/flamenco guitar, it's just as simple as that. A lot of guitarists play the electric with a pick and I can see how it's hard to break that dependency on the technique. Your's? Well it doesn't matter, play the classical/flamenco guitar and wait while putting the work in and someday you'll look back on this and just sigh at all of the work you still have to do. Play various skill oriented exercises, practice reaches, work on timing etc.. Enough said. Except, don't mark your calendar!
Gary
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2009 20:11:09

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to gato

quote:

Play lots and lots of classical/flamenco guitar,


This can be a bit of a dangerous suggestion.

Now that im playing conventional, im realizing that, in particular, the arpeggio
technique for each style is pretty significantly different.

The profile of the right hand is lower, and more perpendicular to the strings
in flamenco.
Classical players use a higher profile, and play more off the left edge of
the nail.
Classical rest stroke is also very different from flamenco picado.

The angle of the thumb is also a big deal. The tone you're shooting for is
very different in flamenco than it is in classical. In flamenco, you want the
thumb to slide from flesh to string, so the nail smacks(clicks) into the string.
That is the traditional sound. It does not sound flamenco with out that sound.

In classical, the thumb has to sound very smooth.

So if you want to play both styles, you are unavoidably in the situation of
"serving 2 masters".
In my opinion, you dont want to attempt to learn both simultaneously.
These two right hand profiles will be fighting against each other.

They are not nearly as; so called "parallel" as many people think. They are
actually quite different.
So be aware of this. Technique is key to getting
the right sound, and flamenco and classical tone are 2 very different things.

Mastering a guitar "Style" is virtually the same thing as mastering a guitar "Sound"

So decide which one you want to take on, and focus only on that for a
good amount of time.

The big picture/point im trying to make here is, classical and flamenco are both
played on a nylon string, with the fingers, and even mostly have the same sequences (pamimap, pami, pima,) BUT, they are not the same thing.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2009 20:41:49
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to kozz

Thanks,

I also do like simple execises, it can sound so differently depending on which type of arpeggio your playing, and I am always amazed by that, but that's the fun of it.

I wasn't aware of the fact the fingers should be more parallel to the strings....damn, I started the 'easy' way I think....infact the arpeggio from above worked out well at first but now doin the exercise with the "parallel" version its a whole new universe

My goal is to play flamenco offcourse....won't be on this forum if otherwhise....

I also read that the fingers should be relaxed, if suppose this will come overtime when doin the exercises a lot?
Is it actually because I am not confidend on hittin the strings on the right spot that tension is build up in the fingers? I notice that I am "scared" to move my hand when the arpeggio actually works.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2009 0:32:49
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to kozz

quote:

I also read that the fingers should be relaxed, if suppose this will come overtime when doin the exercises a lot? Is it actually because I am not confidend on hittin the strings on the right spot that tension is build up in the fingers? I notice that I am "scared" to move my hand when the arpeggio actually works.


if you are practising arpegios and it feels stiff or tense you are probably trying to go too fast, you are likely "recruiting" additional unnecessary muscles which are not needed for the movements you want to make, and you are not coordinationg the movements correctly, in that the appropriate muscles are not contracting and relaxing in the correct sequence.

when you use a muscle you do so by contracting it. it is not "relaxed" while it is contracting.... when you stop using it, ie. you turn it off, it will no longer be contracting and will return to it's resting length, ie. it will be relaxed....

....when muscles are actually working they are not supposed to be relaxed....

.... most muscles in the body (and i don't have any outside my body.... ) are grouped in pairs, with one flexing a joint and the other extending it. When one muscle works/contracts to flex a joint (such as the bicep flexing the elbow), the opposing muscle (in this case the tricep) should be turned off/relaxed otherwise the movement will be stiff, or not happen at all, and you might even feel "tense" (it might take several minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or even years for this kind of malcoordinated movement behaviour to register as feeling tense tho'.... ). When the opposing muscle (in this example the tricep) works/contracts to extend the joint (in this case the elbow) the opposite one (the bicep) should likewise be turned off/relaxed.

it's a while since i studied the anatomy, so the examples of muscles and joints might noth be spot on, but the principles and ideas are sound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2009 14:26:01
 
KenK

 

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2005
 

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to ToddK

quote:

Classical rest stroke is also very different from flamenco picado.

Hi Todd-

I love it if you could explain a bit about that.
I'm probably doing something in between.

I'd guess you're talking about the angle of attack.
CG generally seems more perpendicular, but I've seen a lot of variations in both styles.

Thanks,
KenK
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2009 7:04:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to kozz

When working on arpegios, just up or down or up down whatever....play the thumb REST STROKE, and leave that puppy down as long as you can, with the fingers do their thing.

Vast majority of good flamenco players make do with just these arps:
pima
pami
pimami

And P/a at the same time when doing arps is important. Tremolo is also sort of like an arp. piami.

that's all you really need to work on. When you get those smooth and fast, anyother patterns are usually no problem when you encounter them.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2009 7:51:08
 
Arash

Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to kozz

yeah and when you play such an Arp (no matter which pattern)

------------------
------------------
-------0---------
-----0--0--------
---0------0------
-0----------0----

where you obviosuly can't rest the thumb on the A-string, simply rest the thumb on the soundboard after the stroke (rest it about 2cm-3cm above the E-string, almost parallel to the strings on the soundboard)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2009 8:21:14
 
v2or

 

Posts: 1
Joined: Mar. 29 2009
 

Playing Postions (Holding the Guitar... (in reply to kozz

Just wanted to see if any one has advice for playing positions. Im 6'8" love playing the guitar however when I play in a traditional Paco position my rt arm gets tired quick. Then If I switch to a classical position I can play longer but I dont like the tone I am getting. I have also found that when I am playing in the cross legged Paco position sometimes my rt hand is very ben almost like a 45 degree angle. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

_____________________________

Victor Tarassov
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2009 8:35:38
 
Arash

Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Arpeggio exercise (in reply to kozz

Try Footrest

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2009 8:58:41
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