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Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Flamenco guitar recommendations unde...
Greetings - this is my first post here, so please go easy on me!
I am interested in acquiring a flamenco guitar under about $2k US, and I am looking at the following models: Loriente "Carmen" SP/CY (Finish: Lacquer); CordobaSolista Flamenco; Paco de Lucia Siroco Blanca
Does anyone have any direct experience comparing or playing any of these specific guitars? If you have played or owned any of these specific guitars, what is your opinion on any or all of them?
I’m interested in differences in quality of sound, volume, playability, intonation, rasgueado vs. picado (ease & responsiveness), build quality, aesthetics, durability, etc.
Someone on another forum recommended a Manuel Rodriguez FF Flamenco model as well - does anyone have an opinion on those? Do you recommend anything better in the same price range?
Any information based on direct personal experience with these specific guitars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much in advance for any helpful advice you can offer.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
First off, welcome to the Foro!! This is my second attempt to answer your question however earlier my response timed out for some reason. Perhaps the host servers are having issues... Anyway, If you search the forum here you will probably find information on these instruments as they have been discussed in great detail in the past. My personal experience is I have played a Rodriguez FF and it was a decent instrument but compared to my Amalio Burguet, it didn't stand up favorably. My Burguet 1F was purchased used for under 2k in 2006 and it had replaced my Rodriguez C3F student flamenco which served my needs for the first 3 years of learning Flamenco. I've found the my Burguet has made learning more productive as the instrument is easier to play and sounds much better than my C3F. The best advice I can offer is that you try and demo as many instruments as possible before you purchase. Most if not all guitars under the 2k range are factory built as opposed to hand built and the quality is uneven so you have to try several instruments. Sig--
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Welcome! Honestly, for under 2K I wouldn't recommend either of those guitars. I have played them all and was left unsatisfied. The Siroco was ok. I would recommend Francisco Navarro's 'Concert Flamenco', $1700.00 or Hermanos Sanchis Lopez 'Solea' model, $2000.00 or their 2F-05 model, $1800.00.
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Thanks for the reply, Tom. I will try to check out those models that you suggested. Also, have you ever played or heard the Paracho made Casa Montalvo brand instruments? http://berkeleymusic.com/flamenco.html If so, what was your impression of them? Are they on a par with higher priced Spanish made instruments? How do they compare with the Navarro? Thank you for your advice.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Dear Jgtr07,
You are asking Tom to recommend guitars sold by another shop than his own. Obviously, he will steer you in the right direction regardless of any self-interest, but EVERYONE here on the Foro has loads of respect for Tom. I play a Burguet 2F and it's a good student guitar. That said, I hope to up-grade to the next level soon and will certainly seek Tom's advice when that day comes.
Tom is one of the many highly reliable sources available to us here on FF and I would listen to his advice!
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to ddk)
quote:
Dear Jgtr07,
You are asking Tom to recommend guitars sold by another shop than his own. Obviously, he will steer you in the right direction regardless of any self-interest, but EVERYONE here on the Foro has loads of respect for Tom. I play a Burguet 2F and it's a good student guitar. That said, I hope to up-grade to the next level soon and will certainly seek Tom's advice when that day comes.
Tom is one of the many highly reliable sources available to us here on FF and I would listen to his advice!
Buena suerte.
Best regards, Dean
Wow Dean, thank you very much for such kind words. Jgtr07, it's ok. As a buyer you want to check out ALL your options. There are a lot of great buys out there. Sometimes new isn't always the best one. There are great used guitars out there as well.
I've played a couple Montalvo guitars and liked them. For a while, I used to think Navarro made them because they were very similar but I later heard that one of the Huipes was making them. I really don't know who makes them but I don't really care either as I think they are good and whoever makes them is doing a good job. Jason McGuire at one time was playing them. Don't know if he still does. I believe he played a Hauser model and from recordings the thing sounded great. I'm sure a lot of that was due to his playing but the sound that was coming from the box was very nice.
If possible, play as many guitars as you can. Your ears and hands will tell you which is the one for you. If that is not an option due to there not being any dealers in your area, you'll be forced to buy online. Nothing wrong with that. Just be sure whoever you buy from has a good return policy and you should be ok.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
For 2k you could get a used conde.
I really doubt it, prices for used Conde don't go below 4K USD anymore. Please let me know if you have one for sale or know somebody who has a media luna headstock conde with signed label for sale for under 3500 USD.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to itoprover)
quote:
I really doubt it, prices for used Conde don't go below 4K USD anymore.
I've seen a few Conde EF-5 and EF-4 models sell for $1,000 USD--or even a little less--but I doubt these two models are what you mean when you think of Conde. All the other Conde models I've seen had starting prices of at least $5,000 to $6,000 USD--and these were a bargain compared to the $10,000 USD offerings.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to itoprover)
I didn't say a top of the line one, but as posted above, you can get one for a grand that may be better than some of the guitars being written about above. For 2k, you could get a very good one if you are in the right time and place. Dimitri from flamenco teacher sold a really nice one for a great deal a few years back. Another one went on ebay recently for more than 2k, but it was a deal. I've seen good ones go unbid on e-bay that were 4k plus. If I was in the market for a guitar, I'd not overlook locals who might want to sell..........a lot of it might have to do with how many players there are in a given area. There is always a guy who spent a ton on a guitar, then figured out how hard it was to play.
quote:
ORIGINAL: itoprover
quote:
For 2k you could get a used conde.
I really doubt it, prices for used Conde don't go below 4K USD anymore. Please let me know if you have one for sale or know somebody who has a media luna headstock conde with signed label for sale for under 3500 USD.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to itoprover)
this what your looking for? This guitar went without bids on e-bay last month. The starting bid was 3500. What are the odds the guy would take less than that?
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Mark2)
Mark,
Here is the thing - this talk is not about the odds and chances and my post was not a joke at all. I literally mean what I have said in my post - I'd like to buy a media luna headstock conde with signed label from Felipe V preferably for less than 3500 USD. I have a very good A26 already and I am looking for AF25 negra. I would be happy if I'll find a good one for 3K but unfortunately the reality is slightly different nowadays. And my point is that it is almost impossible to get a decent used Conde (I don't think their estudio models fall under "decent" category) for 2K nowadays.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to itoprover)
quote:
ORIGINAL: itoprover
Mark,
Here is the thing - this talk is not about the odds and chances and my post was not a joke at all. I literally mean what I have said in my post - I'd like to buy a media luna headstock conde with signed label from Felipe V preferably for less than 3500 USD. I have a very good A26 already and I am looking for AF25 negra. I would be happy if I'll find a good one for 3K but unfortunately the reality is slightly different nowadays. And my point is that it is almost impossible to get a decent used Conde (I don't think their estudio models fall under "decent" category) for 2K nowadays.
Sorry man, you are out of luck at this point. Maybe you can find one in BAD shape for such a price and fix it up yourself or spend the difference fixing it. Not sure why everyone wants conde's for cheap and talks bad about them all the time as though the supposed "good ones" are a rare breed. OLD Sobrinos still pop up occasionally for 5-6K and that is a good price IMO for such guitars. The newer ones SHOULD be priced about the same IMO, but mainly I see the differences in price (4-9K) based on year and condition. I don't mind a well played guitar with cracks and stuff personally. So long as it is not warped and can be tuned, I think MOST conde's have some potential for somebody, and therefore, you won't find any very cheap ones.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Ricardo,
What I mean here is a "ready to go" guitar and I still think that it is almost impossible to find one for cheap nowadays - even in bad shape - because potential seller of such instrument would rather get it fixed and put it on the market after for 4K with "professionally repaired" comment. But, yes, it is possible to find a good conde for a good price which I would say 4K-5K. I was looking for a A26 Conde last winter and made a post in Classifieds that caused quite a debate here at foro if you remember. Regarding "good" and "bad" condes - I really don't know - I tried 3 of them last winter and all 3 were good, one of them sounded a little better so I decided to keep it for myself.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Guest)
Your right, there was no guarantee that those guitars could have been purchased for the prices I posted. But what is interesting is that there were no takers even at the opening bid prices I posted. Which means a motivated seller may have been willing to take the prices that were listed as opening bids, or possibly even less.
Even if you ended up paying 4800 instead of the opening bid price of 4k for a devoe negra, that would seem to be a good buy. Guitars can be a bit like boats in that some people put out a lot of money for them, then decide they aren't getting much use from them.
There is the collector mentality vs. the practical one. Do you want an instrument in perfect condition, or one that simply sounds amazing, or both? Do you have to have a signed conde with the half moon, or would you settle for any great playing & sounding guitar that's priced right?
The OP was considering different guitars in the 2k range to I presume to play. He wasn't fixated on brand. My point was that he had other options than the ones he was considering, which included used condes.
As to the 30k reyes, they may be asking that, but as to if they sell it for that, who knows? And even if someone with too much desire or money pays that, that doesn't change the reality that one can still get a great deal on a guitar if they are patient, flexible and willing to do a bit of leg work.
If I was wanting to buy that 3.5 k conde, I'd be inclined to call the seller up, since I live close by and know the person he bought it from, then stuff 35 hundreds in my pocket and go see the guy. A wad of greenbacks has the potential to create flexibility.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealf
Mark2:
- those attachments you posted are rather misleading, for example the Devoe Negra was selling for $4800 and not $4000 as you state. The Conde was 3500 (reserve not met) starting price.
- Yes, Dimitri sold a Conde (and many other guitars) cheap many years ago, also Reyes blancas were selling for around 5-8K at that time. The KEY phrase is "many years ago". Thats not today .... (today GSI is selling a 93 Reyes Blanca for $30,000!!).
Posts: 15
Joined: Oct. 7 2008
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Thanks for the input, guys. This thread is about flamenco guitar recommendations under $2k US...for a ready to go, playable instrument in the Real World.
I wanted suggestions on the specific models I listed above, based on real world experience with those particluar guitars. Sure, if you have another suggestion for a comparable or better guitar at the same price level, I am definitely open to it.
I need to find a REAL guitar under $2k which I can buy in the present time - the guitars I listed were all available to me, so that's why I mentioned them. If you have any more relevant helpful suggestions, I'm open to hearing them.
I really appreciate Tom's valuable and honest advice above about the Navarro and the Sanchiz Lopez, as well as his very kind feedback on the Montalvo. As he advised, I am checking out all my options, and will probably buy from a dealer online with a good return policy once I decide...
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Jgtr07 :
I would strongly recommend Jeff Sigurdson - I think you can get his lower end models for around $1700. Also consider Navarro and Sanchis.
Mark:
Sometimes it is not the collector mentality plays the role - when you live in a place like Ottawa, Canada you practically have no way to try out guitars before you buy as most of the guitars for sale are in US or Europe. Even when seller agrees to take the guitar back in case you don't like it you'll end up paying shipping, customs duties, federal and provincial tax - for example for a 3500 usd guitar it can be around $550 which is like 15% off your purchasing budget. All this makes you to base your decision on impressions that you got from trying other people's guitars, foro and web recommendations. So sometimes people are fixated on 2-3 brands because of all this.
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to itoprover)
No doubt location can have a major influence on the availablity of instruments. People who don't have the option of several used guitars in their area or the option of walking into local shops and playing several guitars are at a huge disadvantage. I just bought a left handed sitar on e-bay. It was a risk in that it could have been a totally unplayable instrument. Being left handed, I've never been able to really play a guitar before buying it. But I have benefited from knowing people, as well as sheer luck in purchasing a few guitars. Other guitars didn't work out so well. I hope you find the guitar you are looking for.
And Jgtr07, I assure you my antedotes have a basis in reality, as I own a a few good flamenco guitars that were purchased well below market prices. I also wish you success in your search.
quote:
ORIGINAL: itoprover
Mark:
Sometimes it is not the collector mentality plays the role - when you live in a place like Ottawa, Canada you practically have no way to try out guitars before you buy as most of the guitars for sale are in US or Europe. Even when seller agrees to take the guitar back in case you don't like it you'll end up paying shipping, customs duties, federal and provincial tax - for example for a 3500 usd guitar it can be around $550 which is like 15% off your purchasing budget. All this makes you to base your decision on impressions that you got from trying other people's guitars, foro and web recommendations. So sometimes people are fixated on 2-3 brands because of all this.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
If I may add to this, I have two student model Francisco Navarro, Cedar and Cypress with pegs (I keep one in NY and one in SF as my practice guitars). Tom Nunez was patient enough to accommodate a dash of vanity and have Francisco mount rose-rosettes I had purchased at Luthier Mercantile International. Also, I requested ebony pegs, those with the mother of pearl inlay. Fantastic guitars.
It all had started with a gift I made to my niece who is picking up guitar after me. After a luthier in SF adjusted strings alignment, lowered the action, replaced nut and saddle with bone, and touched up the pegs friction, I could not believe the purity and authenticity of the sound.
I have an AF/25 R Conde Negra. I love it, really love it, but I really alternate between the two now and must say that some music sounds so wonderfully authentic on the Navarro. It has that inherent “duende” that I was looking for.
The guitar goes for about $1,000 and I must say I wouldn’t resell mine for $4,000. Very pleased. I am sure that higher priced ones (still modestly so, however) must have added virtues, but this I would swear by (with the Luthier’s adjustment proviso).
By the way, hello Tom, it is nice to see you post here.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to TANúñez)
quote:
Jason McGuire at one time was playing them.
Hi Tom, I found this link on another post and think Jason's guitar is made by this maker. If so, they sound tremendous and a great value. http://www.glenncaninguitars.com/about.htm
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Good morning (at least on this hemisphere) dear Jim. It is wonderful to see you post here. You haven’t added any new Video on YouTube, have you? I always look forward to watching your stuff, and often review your Solea, Taranta and Cancion. ‘getting ready to leave LA and off to NYC.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
I think the Sanchis Lopez 2F-05 is amazing (at least it sounds so for my unexperienced beginner's ears), and it goes for around ~$1000 these days. Sounds like twice that price, though.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
Welcome to the foro.
You're asking people for opinions on a very subjective issue. Before spending any money, the wise person will evaluate the source of advice before accepting it unquestioningly.
Having said that, I agree with Tom on the Francisco Navarro option. Another equally good (if not better) Paracho option is Salvador Castillo. Both have won the Mexican national luthiery competition, Castillo more recently. PDL (who owns a house in Mexico) went to the competition a few years ago and singled out Castillo as the best maker in Mexico. I own two Castillos, two by Manuel de la Chica (old-school Granada - he made Segovia's first guitar; see Brune's article "Guitars with Guts" in last Nov. issue of "Vintage Guitar") and have owned a top-of-the-line Ramirez and several others, including factory models that were the equivalent of Burguet, Rodriguez, etc. . I have played Condes and compared them directly (side-by-side) with Castillo's blanca and, although Condes are excellent guitars, I agree with Ricardo -- you are unlikely to find a bargain in a Conde. I think anyone will agree that, to some degree, you pay extra for the label when you buy a Conde. Personally, I heard no quality difference (loudness/projection and clarity) between Conde and Castillo; the "sweetness" or lyrical quality of sound is too subjective for me to offer a meaningful opinion. I think the Conde is an excellent but overpriced guitar. But that is an opinion, so you'll want to evaluate its source.
I worked in the musical instrument restoration lab at the Smithsonian for 4 years and have played flamenco for almost 50 years, but I'm not a luthier (although I have built a harpsichord and restored a few guitars). I lived and studied (flamenco, not luthiery) with Rafael Morales in Granada for a while -- directly across the street from Bellido's shop on Cuesta Gomerez. Take that resume for what it's worth in assessing the value of my opinion. Here it is:
The top 5 makers in Paracho are now the equal of most top makers in Spain, but the Paracho makers are vastly undervalued because Paracho was for many many years known for producing no more than "good" quality studio guitars, and they still suffer from that past reputation (and from their own depressed economy). THe city of Paracho also produces some abysmal guitars -- you have to be selective when you choose a Paracho luthier. When I was working at the Smithsonian (35 years ago), my boss had the job of traveling the world evaluating luthiers during the summer. His opinion of the best Paracho makers was "they are a real bargain, but not yet the equal of the best in Spain". That has changed now, which presents present-day buyers with an opportunity. BUT that means you have to trust your own judgment and your own ear more than the label in the guitar. Many people don't have the confidence to do that in a world gone "Conde Crazy". But there are some great unrecognized and undervalued luthiers out there in Paracho and elsewhere. Some right here on the foro.
There was a time in the 60's and 70's when the Ramirez dynasty was in the same position that Conde now enjoys. The Ramirez' descent to student quality began when they decided to capitalize on the family name. Is a parallel decline happening with Conde now? Many already say the most prized Condes are made by luthiers of the last generation. Is that an early symptom of decay? Maybe. But I won't make such a claim based on anything other than the evidence of my own ears. And my ears, like everyone else's, are subjective.
Bottom line: if you want to rely on the label, you'll pay a price. If you want a bargain, you HAVE to learn to trust your ear. Try a lot of guitars and learn to hear the difference. It's hard (for me) to compare guitars unless I have them side by side. The setting, the state of the strings, the humidity, and the tiredness of your hands are contributing factors. Keep in mind that new strings can do a lot to make a second-tier guitar sound good, but a great guitar will sound great even with old strings -- so don't be misled there. Also keep in mind that as your hands get stronger, you will find you are able to handle higher action. Sabicas' legendary clean, loud sound came partly from a surprisingly high action. Which means that the ideal guitar for you today may not be the ideal one in ten years.
Probably not the advice you wanted to hear, but there it is. Sorry to be so long- winded. I've had a lot of caffeine this morning.
RE: Flamenco guitar recommendations ... (in reply to Jgtr07)
That is some outstanding advice, and even though not directed at me I take it to heart.
And I noticed that the Conde I mentioned up above is "no longer available", I wonder if it sold? Or perhaps it was taken down for some other reason......hmmm......mystery for the ages......