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Hey everyone, first post here! I'm looking to learn to play flamenco (having played mostly electric guitar) and while I own a classical guitar, I wouldn't be comfortable modifying it for flamenco and would prefer buying one that is made for it and either keep my classical intact or sell it if I decide my flamenco guitar will be enough for everything I want to play. So I have been looking through my options here (in Denmark), and there aren't many. The only flamenco guitar I've found have been Alhambra series, and not very cheap at that.
I don't have a set amount of money I'm willing to spend, really I just want good value for my money. Of course I won't buy a professional level guitar at this stage, but I'd rather pay a bit extra to have one that'll last me a long time. I've read good things about the Yamaha guitar though, so I've been trying to look for one online with no luck. I also heard good things about Francisco Navarro Student, but it's a bit more expensive and I also haven't been able to find it in Europe so far. If I could find a reasonably priced one, I'd rather pay for that then buy an overpriced one from a brand I don't know only to replace it immediately.
Can any other Europeans help me in the right direction to find a solid flamenco guitar for someone new to flamenco? I've searched the forums, but so far I haven't been able to figure out what to begin with. I hope some of you here can help me out. Also if anyone can recommend one of the many online teaching options (preferably cheap) that would be awesome too.
Thanks everyone, looking forward to sticking around here and learn everything I can!
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
If you're in Europe you should be able to find something better than the Yamaha, like one of the cheaper Bernal models. I'm not sure what's the best way to acquire such a guitar in Denmark in particular.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Adam)
Thanks for your reply Adam! I've tried looking for a Bernal guitar, but I haven't been able to find one. Again it seems all the stores who carry them are in the US when I search. I wouldn't mind buying it from a store in the UK or another place in Europe as long as the shipping isn't too expensive. I would still be a lot cheaper than getting one from the US. Are there any stores in Europe you could recommend that carry that line of guitars?
Or from London, Ramon Ruiz usually has a few for sale he may ship to Denmark. He goes to Spain and chooses the guitars so you are going to get one picked out by a professional flamenco guitar player.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to orsonw)
Thanks, that's great! Since I won't be able to try the guitar for myself, it would be awesome to have a professional player sell it to me so I know I don't get a bad model. I contacted Ramon and hopefully he can ship to Denmark.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
Which guitar would you guys recommend of the ones on http://www.fiestaflamenca.com/bernal_guitars.htm? Since I'm not sure what exactly I'm paying for or the difference between the guitars, some input from someone who's tried one or several of them would be great!
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
Small update (sorry for the bump!), I ended up going with the Bernal Prodigio and it's amazing! I have been playing a ton every day since I got it and I'm really happy with it. I was very lucky to be able to snatch the last one Ramon sold, so I'm all set for now. Thanks for the help!
Posts: 2
Joined: Apr. 14 2012
From: Hants., England
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
Hi all.
Are you still happy with your Bernal Hibiki? The problem is I can't find any shops with a decent range of flamenco guitars (even in London!) and am not sure how to proceed. People generally seem to recommend the Bernal, the Sanchis 2F or to just wait and get something luthier built. I'm yet to find somewhere to play them and work out the pros/cons...
Thanks in advance to anyone that can offer some advice.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to tambu)
tambu, I'm in the same position as you are, I play electric, steel string acoustic and bass, to a good standard and play with pro bands. And also in London. I need a good sub-£500 flamenco guitar and was thinking of getting the Yam. But it looks like it's been discontinued and replaced by a cheaper satin finished model, the 172.
I have tried learning flamenco in the past a few times, but gave up. However, the desire just won't leave me :) I want to really give it a good go this time.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
LOL, another Londoner in the same situation. Perhaps we should write to the mayor or something.
I can see the options are : - Entry Bernal - If i can get my hands on one : ~£500 - Yamaha CG182SF - £390.00 - Play around with my takamine classical G124S.
Can some one recommend avenues to sell Guitars? I really do not wish to get into the entire business of wrapping up and sending it cross country on ebay or something.
So looking for a few shops in or around london who can purchase used instruments.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
After thinking I might get the Yam 182SF, yesterday I bought a Finlayson Electro-Classical cutaway. £599 from Guitar Guitar in Epsom. He's a Scottish guitar repairer who has guitars built to his design in China and finished and set up by him in Glasgow. Solid Rosewood back and sides, solid cedar top, ebony fingerboard and tuners, Fishman preamp. It looks lovely too. I tried a £1500 Almansa flamenco and this Finlayson had it beat, as bright sounding, although warmer and with longer note release and with similar action (about 4mm at the 12th - too high!).
I needed a good all-rounder, not just for learning Flamenco, but for gigging and recording in one of my bands. It's a great guitar, very nicely built. Excellent flight-worthy hard case too. I will get it fettled - have a bone nut and saddle fitted and the action lowered. The neck relief is fine, I have already shaved the saddle by about 1.5mm, but I think it can go lower.
I know this guitar is probably anathema to most of you, but I'm a relative beginner to flamenco and I wanted something good to learn on as well as the other applications I need it for. I'll save my cash for a really nice flamenco instrument when I'm worthy of such. This is an excellent guitar for the money and I heartily recommend it as an alternative to the usual options.
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
If you want to play any flamenco, make sure you have a golpeador (plastic pick guard) installed on it, otherwise all those golpes (nail hits on the guitar body) will be likely to break through the wood!
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
hi guys i am beginner in flamenco playing and i been doing read up on various brands ie: Alhambra 3F , Azahar 131 , Yamaha CG171, Almansa, cordoba and manuel rodriquez... however i am looking for a traditional build and brighter tone with good bass and clear crispy all at starter price.. i am budget to be at round 500USD-600USD...
any recommendation? or anyother brands to introduce? i am looking greatly at azahar 131 as it has gotta cypress and mahogany with rosewood fretboard.. i also read that it may not be necessary to sound good with type of wood but instead quality of wood being made..
i have also come to know o sycomore wood on various guitar companies who are offering for their budget model.. so whats basically sycomore have in tone? does it offers the traditional tone as cypress?
i am looking for tone and quality of build anyone can enlighten ? thanks!~
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to hopkinWFG)
quote:
ORIGINAL: hopkinWFG
hi guys i am beginner in flamenco playing and i been doing read up on various brands ie: Alhambra 3F , Azahar 131 , Yamaha CG171, Almansa, cordoba and manuel rodriquez... however i am looking for a traditional build and brighter tone with good bass and clear crispy all at starter price.. i am budget to be at round 500USD-600USD...
any recommendation? or anyother brands to introduce? i am looking greatly at azahar 131 as it has gotta cypress and mahogany with rosewood fretboard.. i also read that it may not be necessary to sound good with type of wood but instead quality of wood being made..
i have also come to know o sycomore wood on various guitar companies who are offering for their budget model.. so whats basically sycomore have in tone? does it offers the traditional tone as cypress?
i am looking for tone and quality of build anyone can enlighten ? thanks!~
Well no one can really recommend you anything. You have to try the guitar out yourself. I've played many crappy Cordoba's. But every once in a while there is a pretty good one. You really have to play it yourself.
Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to hopkinWFG)
Sycamore is a cheaper alternative to cypress for flamenco guitars. They say it has similar tonal qualities as cypress. I find that it lacks the power, projection, and focus of sound that cypress has. It's a decent alternative for a beginner.
In a lot of beginner guitars, the back and sides will be laminated woods. Sometimes the tops will be too. Avoid guitars with laminated tops. Get a guitar with a solid spruce or cedar top. Preferably, the back and sides would be solid wood as well.
I've played some Alhambra, Almansa, and Yamaha guitars. I didn't really like the Yamaha much though I don't remember which model it was. I tried a few Alhambra guitars and found that the necks didn't feel right. They felt like they may have been shaped for speed and just didn't feel comfortable to play. I ended up going with the Almansa as my first flamenco guitar. It has served me well over the years and I still use it as my backup/campfire/open stage guitar. If you go that way I would recommend spending the extra money for the 447 model rather than the 413 model. The action on the 413 is a bit high for flamenco. Plus, the 447 has solid cypress back and sides and a solid spruce top.
But, as That_Guy said, you have to try it for yourself.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
Thank you guys for the reply and the explaination over cypress and the Sycamore wood... i am looking for build of specific brand with good consistancy on their production and so far alot of great reviews on the yahama flamenca guitar...
however i have tested Cordoba F7 and its good so far as it is trebly and bright ..... as this is going to be my first flamenca guitar so am trying to obtain one with the best build best tone for a small price lol..
Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to hopkinWFG)
The Yamaha CG171SF was a better value here in the US than in Europe. It sold for $300 to 350 and I got mine for just under $280. For European shoppers, I usually recommend that they check out the budget models from the Spanish brands.
The CG171SF was replaced by the CG172SF. I think the CG171SF was the better guitar in all respects.
quote:
ORIGINAL: hopkinWFG however i have tested Cordoba F7 and its good so far as it is trebly and bright
The F7 can be a good student's flamenco guitar. It suffers from quality control inconsistencies so I usually don't recommend it to people who are ordering by mail.
If you are able to evaluate an F7 before buying it, just check the fret dressing, the fret edge smoothness, the smoothness of the tuning machines, and the overall finishing. Those are where I've usually seen problems. Good dealers here in the US would take care of minor fret dressing and set-ups for free.
How much do they sell for where you are? We can get them discounted for US$400 to $425.
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
Thanks for your input ;) yes your very right on the F7 cordoba which the craftmanship is abit of here and there... have heard the F7 to be china produced? but am taking no bad remarks here if it sounds the basics and feel of what a decent flamenca should be....
i see your a upgraded yamaha user and having hearing so many goods on yamaha how do you fare out between the F7 to the yahama personally?
should a step higher for a F10 be prudent ? tone and quality aspect?
Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
Both guitars are made in China. For me, the key difference is that Yamaha builds their guitars in a fully-owned subsidiary in Hangzhou and has full control of the production and the supply chain (they source their woods from their subsidiary in Indonesia). Cordoba contracts with a factory which I think is located in Guangzhou.
Yamahas also come with a limited lifetime warranty. I haven't yet hear of anyone who has needed to use it though. I don't remember what sort of warranty comes with the Cordobas.
I think the F7s that I've played sound a bit more flamenco than the CG171SF that I played. The F7s are built with the shallower body style rather than the deep classical guitar body style. If the price difference was about $50-100 and I could properly inspect the F7 for no serious flaws, then I would choose the F7.
I have not played an F10. I have played a handful each of Cordoba's C7 and C10 and I did not perceive enough of a difference to justify the C10's price tag. It may be the same with the F7 and the F10.
Again, keep in mind that the CG171SF is no longer in production. I've played two CG172S guitars but not in a situation where I could do a comparison or come to a good assessment. In general, I like the CG171SF more than the CG172SF.
I upgraded my CG171SF with a bone nut and bone saddle and adjusted the action to my preference. I also changed the lyra tuners to higher-end gold-colored Gotohs but that was for pure vanity. The original gold-colored tuners on the Yamaha worked fine.
I passed my Yamaha around at a small gathering of classical and flamenco players last month and it kept getting passed around and played for an hour. I certainly don't think it's an outstanding guitar; there were certainly better flamencas there. I think my friends were just delightfully amused by how nice it sounded and played for an inexpensive factory guitar.
FWIW, I also own a Prudencio Saez PS24 flamenca negra which I acquired used and at a very good price. It is notably a much better guitar than either the Yamaha or the Cordoba, but I would not have been able to afford it as my first guitar when I was starting out.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to GuitarVlog)
I see this Yamaha CG171SF etc and comparisons to other 'Beginner' guitars seems to come around once every 2 months or so ... and its usually the same type of question with the same type of answers of course.... and from the same people......eh GuitarVlog
So it seems to me that first of all this kind of question should be directed into the Product Reviews, which is where most of the relevant info is on these guitars anyway... maybe that section could be organised into low medium and high priced guitars so similar stuff is grouped together and newcomers ( who usually ask these questions) can almost instantly have some kind of comparison and feed back from owners of the respective guitars.. just a thought ............
Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rico_Kiko I see this Yamaha CG171SF etc and comparisons to other 'Beginner' guitars seems to come around once every 2 months or so ... and its usually the same type of question with the same type of answers of course.... and from the same people......eh GuitarVlog
The CG171SF is discontinued. These questions should have ended as of last year.
And of what's left out there in the $400-and-under range ...
CG172SF - I'm not enthusiastic about it.
Cordoba F7 (discounted 20%) - Good if you can check it out first
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to GuitarVlog)
Yes, but you can still get a used one here and there as people are upgrading ...so still a review would be useful . As for the 172 I have only heard about but not played .....(I am out in the wilds and would get nothing , without driving all day or getting a plane ) Which is another good reason for reliable reviews , I read a LOT of stuff about the 171 before I ordered one for myself ...... But reviews from good sources are always useful even on discontinued models ...often they will be more sought after ,...
However my point was more about the organisation of information on guitar reviews in an order so you could pull it out quick enough , like in a filing cabinet and be able to compare it to guitars of a similar range ......
maybe it sounds like a lot of work ...............
RE: Yamaha CG171SF or other entry le... (in reply to Hibiki)
Thanks alot guys for the effort here ! i really appreciate it.. looks like the Cordoba 7F has make its mark for a starter's choice... but strange when you guys mentioned yamaha CG171SF to be discontiuned.. however i still manage to find it on yamaha website...
it mentioned nato neck cypress sides and back with rosewood... (i know of nato being cheaper alternative to mahogany)
VS
Cordoba mahogany neck cypress laminate and rosewood FB...
wonder whats the material of a traditional flamenca?
some manufacturers uses Cedar neck some mahogany neck...
it seems like cordoba has the authentic feel touch and tone of what a least decent flamenca should be huh?
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