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to Florian and Ron, open letter.
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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 to Florian and Ron, open letter.
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Dear Ron and Florian:
Although my initiation to this forum is quite recent and my contribution proportionally modest, I beg your pardon for taking the initiative to write this note.
On one hand, I want to remind Florian how delicate and perfidious it is to moderate any debate, and ask that Florian appreciate Ron’s role. A moderator is required to be and remain “super partes” at all times, and in the process of discharging such stringent duty he may, as he possibly did, shoot indiscriminately on an unruly crowd to sedate a treacherous thread. It is easier to judge circumstances as a mere and distant witness, and perhaps Florian should do so, and be more forgiving of Ron’s apparently unjust actions.
On the other hand, however, I ask Ron to review Florian’s contribution and role in this flamenco community, mindful and grateful of the wonders of his presence. Florian is undoubtedly a pillar of this forum, perhaps its indefatigable engine, selflessly and relentlessly sharing his knowledge, his views and advice with his ever polite and often colorful, charming, boyish humor. What an inexcusable mistake it would be to allow this loss to occur, Ron.
My advice is that Ron should articulate an apology to Florian and ask that he stay on. Not apologizing for what he was “compelled” to do, nor for wisely avoiding to advocate a member against another, but for failing to offer a reasonable and considerate explanation to a member, Florian, who deserves one.
Florian, you cannot leave this Forum…. I am sure the great majority of the members and administrators’ votes coincide on this. And personally, I would really miss you.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 19 2009 5:00:16
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: to Florian and Ron, open letter. (in reply to gj Michelob)
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Please everyone read carefully! and think about it without getting emotional:
First of all, metaphorically speaking, i have to say that when 2 persons are "fighting" in a brawl, the most easiest thing
for a 3rd Person is to side (directly or indirectly) with one of these persons and help him to knock out the other one and
bring an end to the story.
And the most difficult thing for this 3rd person is, to investigate all the facts and try to be fair und unbiased,
even though he might personally like one person over the other one or even though one of these persons is his friend or......
But if he does this and holds a mirror up to BOTH Persons (and not only one person), people (and his friend) might look at him as a betrayer.
But he gotta stand it if he wants to be at peace with himself!
Thats one of my own principles and i am not going to betray my priciples here in the foro either, so followings:
Those who are long enough here to follow the "carrier" of these 2 guys and Rons reactions, and those who followed "that actual thread", know exactly what i am talking about.
1) It is a fact that Flo and Todd dont like eachother and that they will always have problems here (anything else like
"come on....shake hands and be friends" is just empty phrase and WONT REALLY HAPPEN. We know it, Flo knows it, Ron
knows it, and Todd too!, and everyone else too). There might be a short break but sooner or later it will start again.
2) It is a fact that Todd wanted to provoke Florian indirectly (not mentioning Flos name) with his comment "this is all crap"
3) It is a fact that Ron can not BAN Todd for such a comment. THAT IS NOT HOW AN ADMIN CAN HANDLE A FORO.
IT IS AGAINS FORUM RULES TO BAN SOMEBODY BECAUSE OF SUCH COMMENTS, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS AN INDIRECT PROVOCATION.
4) It is a fact that Florian misuses his popularity to blackmail Ron with comments like "ban me, i will not come back again",
"why dont you ban Todd after 5 years of bully"...."i did so much for the foro and this is your answer?" ....
and so on and waiting for people to say: "Dont go, come back..." etc.
5) It is a fact that Florian is an easy target for indirect teasings from Todd and that he cant stay cool and that he
always blusters in to endless answers and a weird doom loop, even if Todd just says 3 Words like "this is crap".
And at the end, Flo wants to hear the magic Words from Ron: "Ok Flo, i will ban Todd". Everything else Ron did, like
deleteing threads to cool down everybody or saying things like:"Todd, please stop it", dont make Flo happy.
6) It is a fact that RON is in a very difficult situation because at the end, he is always the guilty one, not banning
Todd.
7) It is a fact that there is no easy solution for the whole problem.
EVERYBODY IS GUILTY AND NO ONE IS GUILTY.
8) It is a fact that many people enjoy such fights and buy popcorn and even add fuel to the fire to keep it burning.
---
Please TODD and FLO Listen:
1) Todd, please, do it for the others (not for Flo), do it for RON or anybody you might like in the foro and dont provoke
Florian (directly or INDIRECTLY) anymore. Even if you dont agree with Flo or think that Flo is doing something crap, do it for the others.
2) Flo, please, instead of forcing anybody to "remove the Todd problem", think about other solutions.
No one can REMOVE him just because he is fighting with YOU since 5 years and just because YOU are one the best members contributing to a Forum. That is not how a democratic Forum works!
_____________________________
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 19 2009 6:09:35
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: to Florian and Ron, open letter. (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
you have made it into FLo - Todkk its never been that...its always been todk taking every oportunity to undermine me and insult me and rubish everything i do...and its always been me geting angry at him for it.
Flo - Toddk doesnt mean that YOU have ever initiated a new "fight".
I agree with you that you were almost passive.
Flo - Toddk only means that this problem it between you 2. Thats all.
quote:
I am sick of people telling me how i should be reacting to beeing screwed..enough i been getting told for 5 years...
Why? Have you ever tried to IGNORE him once in this 5 years? Have you ever tried another solution than what you always do ?
quote:
fact is its been 5 years without even an attept to stop it from Ron
Thats not true!
I remember the last time when Todd said that he is leaving the Foro because that is maybe the easiest way and the best solution for everybody. And you had a big smile on your face and Todd dissapeared for a long time.
And that RON explicitly requested Todd to STOP! and warned him.
And did RON held him back?
I dont think so.
Todd even wanted to join another foro (that Oldschoolforo at the BEGINNING, because he thought it was a new foro).
He said something like: "It was time to have an alternative to foroflamenco".
Then he realized that the participants were the same and stopped posting there.
I remember exactly!
So, you see that there is no special relationship between RON and him here.
quote:
I am pretty sure i know when i am getting bullied and i am pretty sure its wrong and i am also pretty sure someone should have taken some action in 5 years instead you are making me sound like some spoiled litlle child for not acepting it..
IMO, you are partially right. But it is also true that in many cases you REALLY behave like a Child. Sorry to say that.
You started a thread about Forum Etiquette.
Todd came and said: this is all crap.
You asked him what is crap?
He said something like "requesting something which you dont follow yourself".
Then, all of a sudden, you turned in to that speciall Florian-Mode which ended with "i am done with this...." and so on....
Either you could have asked further: "Todd, describe exactly what you mean with saying that i dont follow the Forum Etiquette rules which i was talking about?".
And let us assume that after that your question remained unanswered and Todd just dissapeard leaving you without any answer, what can you do in this case? .....well, imo you chose the wrong solution and added and added endless additions to your posts which ended with you feeling beeing bullied again and acting like a bullying victim.
Dude, in many cases you make a Bullying victim out of yourself by acting like this. Why dont you understand that?
Why do you always force yourself in that Role?
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Date Jan. 19 2009 7:11:16
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henrym3483
Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland
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RE: to Florian and Ron, open letter. (in reply to Florian)
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flo,
there is alot of ways to describe bullying, legally it's "anything which causes persistent alarm, distress or harm to an individual whether physcially or mentally".
is it allowed here? no, not in my opinion.
as ron has said many times before, and others have said so. this place is like a bar, if i dont like the guy standing at the bar or i see my ex who is a totally nutter and rather than go up to them, and bring up stuff in the past, i go off and talk with my friends. if they say anything to me, i ignore, because i couldnt give a F@ck what they think.
in this case flo, you should learn not to give a F@ck about todds opinion, because i can gaurantee you on this foro there are alot of other who dont give a F@ck about his opinion's either.
if other people want to listen to his opinions, you do your thing and focus on the people who (and i count myself amongst them) care about your artistic and development in flamenco. if you dont want to see what todd says block him from your view.
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Date Jan. 19 2009 8:30:51
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Stu
Posts: 2545
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
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RE: to Florian and Ron, open letter. (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
1 What is the definition of bullying ? how do you define someone getting bullyed ?
BULLYING - 3 dictionary results
bul⋅ly
1 /ˈbʊli/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [bool-ee] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, plural -lies, verb, -lied, -ly⋅ing, adjective, interjection
–noun
1. a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.
2. Archaic. a man hired to do violence.
3. Obsolete. a pimp; procurer.
4. Obsolete. good friend; good fellow.
5. Obsolete. sweetheart; darling.
–verb (used with object)
6. to act the bully toward; intimidate; domineer.
–verb (used without object)
7. to be loudly arrogant and overbearing.
–adjective
8. Informal. fine; excellent; very good.
9. dashing; jovial; high-spirited.
–interjection
10. Informal. good! well done!
bul·ly 1 (bŏŏl'ē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. bul·lies
1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
2. A hired ruffian; a thug.
3. A pimp.
4. Archaic A fine person.
5. Archaic A sweetheart.
v. bul·lied, bul·ly·ing, bul·lies
v. tr.
1. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner. See Synonyms at intimidate.
2. To make (one's way) aggressively.
v. intr.
1. To behave like a bully.
2. To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation: "They bully into line at the gas pump" (Martin Gottfried).
adj. Excellent; splendid: did a bully job of persuading the members.
interj. Used to express approval: Bully for you!
[Possibly from Middle Dutch boele, sweetheart, probably alteration of broeder, brother; see bhrāter- in Indo-European roots.]
bullying
adjective
1. noisily domineering; tending to browbeat others [syn: blustery]
noun
1. the act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something
quote:
2 Is it allowed here ?
I cant really answer as I don't make the rules and I don't know what action may/may not have been taken in private or publicly over 5 yrs.
quote:
can someone please give me the satisfaction of answering this
I answered......Do you feel better?? I doubt it! you knew all this anyway....except maybe the dutch origins of the word bully
I wish I knew a solution man...
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Date Jan. 19 2009 8:45:28
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: to Florian and Ron, open letter. (in reply to gj Michelob)
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Hi gj,
Always nice to see your smiling avatar and enjoy your gentle good humour.
I was only saying to Jim the other day that I wish we had more members like you.
But it's like this.
Henry and I cannot monitor posts on a 24 hour basis.
We have jobs,other commitments and need to sleep.
We are all in different time zones.
So, say someone posts something another person finds "provocative" and that person replies in a hostile way and an argument develops and is well under way when I read it.
1. I am first to decide if the post is provocative.
In practise, the statement may be neutral to the casual onlooker, but appears "provocative" to insulted party who has factored in past hostilites etc.
gj...I do not have a trained Legal mind...how do I determine if the statement is provocative or not, without referring it to a judge, who will no doubt want to hear about the backgrounds of both parties.
2. Now the "reply" to the "provocative" statement is usually angry and insulting and in effect breaks the Forum guidelines, but maybe the person was justified in reacting in that manner given his interpretation of the so called "provocative" statement.
3.However the person who initiated the "provocative" statement asks me to point out the exact word or phrase that I can prove was intended to be directed towards the offended party, but CAN prove clearly that the reply was insulting and offensive and DID transgress the Forum guidelines and demands action be taken against them.
4. Then each start quoting passages and words from each other's posts made in the heat of battle pointing out where Forum rules have been broken.
As I said, I am not a trained lawyer, but am demanded by both parties to deliver justice.
I have been ON and ON for YEARS and YEARS asking people NOT to respond to statements they feel are goading. NOT to take the bait.
I have been ON and ON for YEARS and YEARS for members to address the SUBJECT and NOT the PERSON.
If people would adhere to these simple guidelines then there would be far less ill feelings haunting the Forum.
I sometimes feel it's like the drunk driver who causes an accident and claims that the only reason he drove the car drunk is because nobody had the sense to stop him and so THEY are to blame.
Also admin is required to delete things because the "information is false and therefore defamatory". However the poster claims that this is not so and the statement is "absolutely true and they have the papers and evidence to back it up".
Hey...I thought we were running a little friendly, non-profit making Forum for folk interested in Flamenco to chat and exchange information about music and guitars and technique etc....NOT a flaming Legal Department for Christ's sake!
Part time moderators of a hobbyist forum can only do so much.
In the long run it's up to the members themselves have to at least make an effort in reducing conflict.
I can't delete EVERY post that SOME member finds offensive and ban EVERY member another member doesn't like otherwise we will have very few posts and very few members.
So I say Look to YOURSELVES for the solution to a happy forum and don't just shoot off off-the-cuff remarks in a moment's rage and depend on me and Henry and Simon to sort out the mess that develops.
We CANNOT be there when you hit the SEND button.
Anyway, I've got a headache...
cheers,
Ron
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Date Jan. 19 2009 8:51:01
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) ..this is an oportunity for me, il just practice more... 