Paco and compas.

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Paco and compas.

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Stu

Posts: 2569
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

Paco and compas.

Hey folks, I have been workin through some bits of recuerdo a patino, from La fabulosa guitarra and after working very hard to get my timings/compas right I listen to the album version and sounds very different, its impossible for me to clap/tap along with it. Paco seems to be stretching the compas or something. My version is very regimented which ends up making it sound a bit crap (but I'm bang on the beat)

whats actually happening on that track? is he playing out of compas, or just being really liberal with it???

Stu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2008 2:56:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14899
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Stu)

He is being very liberal with the tempo. It is not meant to be danced, or rather this type of music could fit the "silencio" section of an alegrias dance, which is the section not meant to be hard driving and rhythmic obviously. The timing push and pull is pretty much the same way he interprets the compas of Solea too, when it comes to guitar solo. It is good you first learn to play it with strict tempo, because the amount push and pull you can do is about taste.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2008 5:50:41

Stu

Posts: 2569
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks Ricardo, that's kind of what I thought, thanks for confirming that!

I'm still a little unsure on one thing though, although he's being liberal which doesn't make it rhythmically obvious, I would still have thought that I could tap a constant beat to it and although it may sound full of push and pull it is still happening withing that constant beat.

For example if we knew exactly what speed he was playing and ran a metronome behind it (at that speed) would he be getting ahead of it and falling behind it, but eventually catching up and be in time with it, or would he just lose that click altogether? hope that makes sense it does in my head.

Stu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2008 7:14:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14899
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Stu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

Thanks Ricardo, that's kind of what I thought, thanks for confirming that!

I'm still a little unsure on one thing though, although he's being liberal which doesn't make it rhythmically obvious, I would still have thought that I could tap a constant beat to it and although it may sound full of push and pull it is still happening withing that constant beat.

For example if we knew exactly what speed he was playing and ran a metronome behind it (at that speed) would he be getting ahead of it and falling behind it, but eventually catching up and be in time with it, or would he just lose that click altogether? hope that makes sense it does in my head.

Stu

I know some folks look at rubato like a give and take, and it all works out in the end. But I dont' hold to that. To me, the only way to hold tempo solid is to groove. Once you displace a single subdivided note, you imlpy a different tempo, and the groove is over. So basically NO, as soon as the tempo was changed, it changed for ever. Perhaps he revisits it, but metronome idea would never work unless you turned the dial accordingly. So pointless to tap steadily. You can however, follow the tempo changes just fine if you truely understand how he subdivides. That is how we actually change tempo with a dancer. A dancer can change tempo just with contra tiempos for example, without needing to mark the beat and accents.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2008 9:53:33

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Stu)

That the good side on flamenco. The artist has more or less absolute freedom about the rythm, tonality and..all...

Do somebody remember when I found a 1/4 compas in la tumbona of paco de lucia? I mean a half of a half compas. Normally thats called... "compas mistake"

I asked a professional player, and he said. Yes this media media compas is there, but the feeling in this falseta sounds natural.. so its allowed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2008 12:11:30

Ramirez

Posts: 243
Joined: Apr. 16 2005

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Stu)

I'm working on Recuerdo a Patino too. All the falsettas in the piece fit perfectly in compas. You can see they've been written or created within the boundaries of the alegrias compas - you can hear where the compas accents fall within the falseta phrases - e.g xx3 xx6 x8 x10 x12.

You are right in the sense that there isn't a steady metronomic beat on the recording. However, you can still feel the compas accents within the falseta phrases.

Ricardo is right, you should learn to play in strict tempo first - this will clarify where these accents are and how the falsettas fit into the compas.

Then, like paco, once that is second nature you can have a little fun with it - take ownership of it and play. In this particular context - although the compas is there and integral to the music - no one is dancing or singing along - so you can be a little more free or expressive as you see fit - pushing or pulling the compas as he does to achieve drama and musicality.

Funny thing about Flamenco - you need to be aware of the rules (in this case the compas) before you can break or be flexible with them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2008 2:21:36

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Ramirez)

i learnt the alegrias "barrio la vina" off paco's "el duende flamenco" album a while ago and found same thing.... i had the decision of whether to play metronomically or "a compas elastico" (ie the compas and accents are the same but the tempo is speeding up and slowing down).

i found it much easier in this case to go with paco's stretching of compas etc. than to play metronomically, because that was how i had heard it and studied it from the cd, and metronomically it sounded "wrong" even though i also learnt to play it like that as well and found it a good practise thing to do (and BTW other alegrias i play strictly metronomically "a compas"). any time paco does a picado run in these pieces the tempo is way accelerated...

as ricardo said already, this "elastic compas" is found also in solea, and it's not just paco, many other guitarists play in this way in slower compas forms, such as solea (i'm thinking vicente amigo's "tio arango" which i find impossible to clap palmas to, even though i can sort of hear the accents/compas).

also in siguiriyas, i'm learning a siguiriyas at the moment, and on the cd it's really elastic and stretchy, even though i can hear the compas and accents etc. when i played a bit of it last week a dancer started to clap and then told me it was out of compas, even though i was exactly as the cd.... and in siguiriyas i think the stretchy thing is even more pronounced and common, 'cos it's sung in that elastic way. i'm sort of trying to learn it both ways at the moment, but leaning towards practising with the metronome.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2008 8:49:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14899
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to mark indigo)

General rule when learning or teaching, is metronome first (or foot palmas loop, etc ie steady tempo), elastic second. Once you learn the "elastic" version, it is really hard to "unlearn" it and do it with palmas or dance if you need to. It gets printed on your brain a certain way that is tough to erase. But if you learn it with proper rhythm, then later stretching it how you want, is easy.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2008 13:50:15

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Ricardo)

great topic...funny enough for some reason i was thinking in the car the other day about stuff like this (probably cause of all the loop talk) ..

how preception of timing works in our heads...

sometimes something more uneven sounds more even and right then something metronomicaly perfect..

Sometimes in class during the warm up the dancer counts out the compas for other dancers while they do warm up arms exercises so they get used to it.

and i play solea during it...firstly .i dont trust anyones counting while moving arms and not using feet,( its so eazy to go a litlle off, and expecially cause she would talk to the students in the midlle of it and then resume counting, and because theres no feet.. just lounges and slow steps to the left and right theres nothing to reinforce to me where she is) but i am trying to make sure my solea follows her counting so that i am with her...
right or wrong but the fustrating thing is sometimes she goes quiet while still counting to herself and then comes back at an odd count expecting me to be exactly in the same spot shes in...most of the times it works out...some times we are off a litlle but man i age a year everytime with stress..

It could be me but i also think theres a good chance it isnt me because i am there sitting and tapping my feet for myself while shes not (just moving arms and counting)..only problem is i dont know if my exact tapping matches her exact counting..if our speeds match when shes quiet..but i can tell shes still counting to herself..and that stresses me out cause i cant hear where shes is in acordance to me...if our speeds match. and by the time i find out its too late

.and sometimes i could swear shes shortening or making the values longher to match her pause for breath and instructions to dancers...etc..

I could control the compas but she insists on counting for beginner students so they get used to it ...

I am always so happy when that exercise ends..i always have the feeling ( i survived another day when it ends) lol

If anything will kill us it will be that exercise that goes for 10 minutes...i have visions of myself doing a John McEnroe where i jump out of my chair punch the air curse and throw my guitar at her while she throws her shoes at me..just before we run screaming (medieval style) towards eachother to strangle eachother like a scene out of Braveheart ...

but its all good, shes cool

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2008 21:47:23

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Paco and compas. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

General rule when learning or teaching, is metronome first (or foot palmas loop, etc ie steady tempo), elastic second. Once you learn the "elastic" version, it is really hard to "unlearn" it and do it with palmas or dance if you need to. It gets printed on your brain a certain way that is tough to erase. But if you learn it with proper rhythm, then later stretching it how you want, is easy.

i agree, that is my usual rule too, problem being when learning something from an elasticated recording! and i agree that it is hard to unlearn the elastication - i've done it!

in a way though, these type of alegrias (slow-ish, very elastic, with tremelo, modulating between major and minor etc) are probably not meant to be used in accompaniment, they are composed and performed as concert solos, loosely based on the compas and form of alegrias - just a thought.