10 more years and flamenco going to be JAZZ!!!

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Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

10 more years and flamenco going to ...

hola flamencos,

this is a big argument amoung the players here in my country,

flamenco vs jazz,

players dont like the jazz involved inside the flamenco,

player like the jazz and they use it for flamenco falsetas,

some friends of mine say without the jazz paco de lucia will not be known!!

another said the jazz is very weak comparing to the flamenco and its so sad that flamenco players use it,

some said that flamenco is absorbing any music and convert it in its way as we know flamenco mixed from some differente music as well,

so,

part stick with pure flamenco, tradtional and modifed flamenco in its way,

part love the idea of mixing and haibridng the flamenco with other style such as jazz and blues,

what do u think amigos?!?!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 13:07:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

Well I always take issue as to what it is about modern flamenco that is "Jazz" related, but regardless, I understand this debate. M. Sanlucar's music has gotten more and more complex though not "jazzy" even by his own definition. I would say there will be a point at which the guitar will go further and further from tonic and modality (meaning changing keys venturing into a-tonality like Shoenburg) at which point you can go no further in that direction and you will have a neo classical revival playing very simple modes and melodies. But of course these things are occuring simultaneously, and you will always have traditionalists. But I am sure that "flamenco" will never become known as "jazz" music from spain or something. For now, my personal tastes lie somewhere between the two extremes of trad. vs modern. Tauromagia, Sirocco, Jucal, Barrio Negro, Vivencias, etc. are my favorites.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 15:53:33

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

Define "Jazz"...

I think to respond correctly to this post would mean having to define what flamenco is, which besides obvious facts is completely personal.

I personally like new ideas. The puro stuff is great and has it's place but you can't keep re-inventing the wheel. All music forms develop, and as flamenco is quite young there are still a lot of possibilities. It has nothing to do with jazz, influences are just everywhere.

The guitar has only been around since the late 18th century, flamenco longer...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 15:53:50

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Define "Jazz"...

"If you hafta ask, you ain't never gonna know!"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 16:35:40

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 17:35:26

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 17:39:16

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

quote:

Define "Jazz"...

"If you hafta ask, you ain't never gonna know!"

Actually I think I know (hopefully, since I never asked

). I was actually only questioning flamenco being jazz related. Flamenco is it's own thing even if it has become more complex. More complex doesn't automatically make it jazz.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 19:30:04

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 21:36:10

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

"Related" and "influenced" are two very different things.

Totally agreed. I took that from Ricardo on purpose since it fit so well. Flamenco will never be jazz but is defenitely influenced by it. Few genres have not been influenced by jazz, really.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 22:39:58

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2007 23:50:13

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

Are you are talking specifically about solo guitar ? I dont know a flamenco singer that can also sing jazz, nor a jazz singer that sings flamenco.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2007 1:09:28

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Kate)

Actually by coincidence I have one example: "Diapasón Celeste", an alegría by Nino de Pura, has singers at the end singing obviously very jazzy. Experimental, I couldn't handle it for a whole track, but it sounds very interesting.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2007 6:27:47

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

Just listen to what you want, and play what you play, but to worry about the state of flamenco in terms of purity and outside influences won't get you any where because the flamenco will always change, and always be, no matter what it becomes. And it is so varied today, it's that element of static influences that keep it from going down in a spiral, and the flamenco cannot survive and bury it's head in the sand, not now, in today's world.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2007 7:40:47

Jan Willem

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to John O.)

Like Pitingo and his "soul" escapades???

Love it or hate it, it's op to you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2007 12:28:12

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Jan Willem)

Pepe Habichuela told Pitingo when they were making that album "There will always be people who don't like what you do". There is some very mainstream sounding stuff on that album - even my wife can handle listening to it in the car

I don't think he's ruining the art at all, though. In other parts of the album you can hear his roots.

In the end it comes down to whether you love it or hate it, like you said. That's what I meant by it being completely personal - makes it almost impossible to discuss what's "good flamenco" and what's not (as long as the instruments are tuned, singing is in key and it's in compás, that is).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2007 13:24:29

Guest

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Kate)

"Are you are talking specifically about solo guitar ? I dont know a flamenco singer that can also sing jazz, nor a jazz singer that sings flamenco.

Kate "

Olé Kate

You hit the nail on the head. This is a foro of solo guitar and flamenco is cante

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2007 15:07:03

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2007 16:43:37

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean
Olé Kate

Sean

Hey Sean, the homage to La Sallago sounded wonderful. Sorry to get off thread here but cant find your orginal post. Didn't Estela write asomething about her when she had her 80th ? She was one of El Charico's favourite singers. If I remember rightly he had the only two albums she recorded, though I could be getting her mixed up with some-one else. Will have a look for Estela' article at deflamenco.com.

Still hoping to do that trip to Cadiz one of thses days when Harold is not so busy. He's recording the pianist Pablo Maldonado right now. Not your thing I know but there's a musician who can do justice to both flamenco and jazz. Just to get back on topic

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2007 11:32:48

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

You just used 3 things to judge it though.

Damn, you got me there...

Jazz is an extremely broad term though. You could use the term jazz to compare John Zorn to Glenn Miller to Chet Atkins though their music is a bit different from one another. So if you call flamenco jazz it can still be it's own individual kind of music.

On the other hand, who's to say "FlaMetal" isn't flamenco?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2007 13:18:31

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to John O.)

You're right John, and there seems to be two camps out there, one that says flamenco is puro, or a narrow term, and flamenco is a broad term, considering all of it's influences. FlaMetal, is a matter for the 'ART POLICE' for one, a mode of expression for the other. I think it depends on your tastes, and that is the beauty of artistic license, we as artists have to decide, and there is no authority out there that can actually tell you what to play on your guitar. That artistic license is the state of the flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2007 0:07:07

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to gato)

Of course, if you play for a company or a record company, you give them what they want.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2007 0:54:24

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to gato)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gato

Of course, if you play for a company or a record company, you give them what they want.

And they'll just call it flamenco anyway

kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2007 18:49:43

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Kate)

Well yeah, that too!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2007 21:06:40

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: 10 more years and flamenco going... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

You think about flamenco and jazz, and I see a bigger question that is, isn't the flamenco going thru a kind of globalization anyway, with it's popularity all over the world? And isn't it logical that people would bring their own flair to the flamenco or at least be catered to, and isn't that just a good thing or a bad thing? I think that the classical flamenco should survive no matter what changes are in store, and it is not going to be diluted in any way, but it's survival depends on wether or not it can open up to these influences and what happens or not. But then isn't that a matter only of acceptance, tolerance, celebration, or denial.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2007 22:34:12

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