paco peña alzapua

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paco peña alzapua

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boral

Posts: 68
Joined: Apr. 27 2007

paco peña alzapua

In the book Paco Peña - Toques flamencos, in the soleares, near the end there is an alzapua section (beautiful btw).
It is one of the techniques that I don't practice much (at least at the degree it is played here) . My question is : do you all agree with the direction of the pulgar stroke that is indicated there? sometimes it does not seem logical the direction of the upstroke after a downstroke on an upper string. It seems more logical 2 downstrokes .
But as I said, I have not practice much alzapua at this level.

thank you

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 17:59:39

wiseguy493

Posts: 73
Joined: May 9 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to boral)

Boral this is an excellent alzapua piece...

The purpose for the contrary down-up pulgar strokes is because 2 downstrokes would require backing your thumb up to a previous string, which would break the continuity of the alzapua. Your thumb should move very freely "through" the first downstroke, and prepare for the next upstroke. I always try to prepare for the upstroke by bringing my thumb nail immediately to rest touching the bottom string (from below) before the next stroke and that gives more power and more control to the attack so you get a more impactive sounding alzapua.

The thumb nail upstrokes of alzapua are very important to the tone and while you could probably fake it, you'd probably also spend a lot more effort training to do it that way.

This upstroke pattern absolutely will seem awkward at first, but it's a valuable technique to learn, and will open MANY doors for other alzapua variations. Just take it slow and be patient, alzapua is very difficult!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 20:17:32

boral

Posts: 68
Joined: Apr. 27 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to wiseguy493)

Wiseguy , thank you for answering my question.
I will try to do as you said although it still does not seem logical

. In these sequence , from the 1st to the second beat (of the 12 from soleares),
........0
........2
........3
....0
4
If you were playing with a pick, you would do a sweep motion resting the pick on the lower strig and you would play it with a downstroke.
But I believe you are an experienced player and you know better. I willl try and let you know later

thanks again

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 21:14:00

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to boral)

I don't know what you guys mean but the the alzapua here is not a real alzapua.
The section on page 43 is like this: every triplet is pulgar ( down ) index ( up ) pulgar ( down ) all the way.
Read page 4-9 which explains the signs used.

Btw. very happy to meet a Zappa fan on the foro at last.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 21:51:10

boral

Posts: 68
Joined: Apr. 27 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to koella)

Hi Koella,

Happy to meet a Zappa fan here too.
Great artist, great guitar player... Oh, sorry, this is a flamenco forum...
btw I did not find in pages 4-9 the notation where you use the index finger.
this is becoming an interesting post

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 22:01:50

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to boral) 1 votes

There is no explicit alzapua notation there but you can see that only "closed" arrows are meant for the thumb.
The normal arrows stand for the other fingers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 22:20:33

boral

Posts: 68
Joined: Apr. 27 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to koella)

It looks like you are absolutely right!!!
It is even easyer !!!

Well that is the porpose of the forum , to help each other.
Thanks for the advice.
About Zappa, I will post you later a online radio were you can listen all day to botleg recordings of Zappa concerts if you are interested.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 22:32:19

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to boral)

My favorite at the moment is "let's make a jazznoise here".
I like that groovy horn section.

But my alltime favorite is "live in NY"

And of course I'm intersted in the bootlegs. You can pm me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 22:36:34

boral

Posts: 68
Joined: Apr. 27 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to koella)

PM you

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2007 22:50:02

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to boral)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2007 0:00:09

Ramirez

Posts: 243
Joined: Apr. 16 2005

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to Guest) 1 votes

No the tab is correct - remember this material is targeted at students. It is much easier to execute than traditional alzapua but gives a similar effect.

It is quite clear in the tab and it isn't wrong. As Koella has already pointed out: pulgar ( down ) index ( up ) pulgar ( down ). This passage is a lttle awkward using traditional alzapua - but not impossible.

I think you can see Paco himself using the pulgar/index technique on the recently posted Julian bream video. As i remember he plays a similar passsage ( but I could be wrong - haven;t got time to check right now!)

However - saying that - just seen your vid romerito - hats off to you as you seem to be able to do it just with alzapua - impressive!

By the way - I love Toques Flamencos - for my money, it is one of the best books for newcomers. Am still working through it myself. The pieces have an authenticity about them that you don't really find in other books. This, I think, helps sustain your interest and many of the falsetas are straight from Ramon Montoya and Nino Ricardo. Great stuff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2007 10:30:33

boral

Posts: 68
Joined: Apr. 27 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to Ramirez)

Well...
It seems we have now 2 ways of doing it :
One for students and another for pro's
Great!!!!!!!
thank you

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2007 10:36:17

wiseguy493

Posts: 73
Joined: May 9 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to boral)

On opening up my paco pena notation guide and reviewing the cifra, you guys are right that the notation says to use the index finger for the upstrokes and this is how it was written. When I learned to play this piece I had already learned and exercised using "all thumb" alzapua for these techniques and just disregarded the arrows for anything other than direction.

Using the index finger for upstrokes is the form of traditional alzapua, first used by Ramon Montoya, I believe. The "All thumb" alzapua didn't really evolve until late in Nino Ricardo's life, and I think didn't become the standard technique until Sabicas. I could be wrong, but it would be worth researching if anybody really cares to =) I do know the first passages defined with the label alzapua were played with thumb and index though, but the technique has evolved quite a bit since then

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2007 18:39:19

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to wiseguy493) 1 votes

The Alzapúa Technique Throughout History

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2007 19:27:41

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Estevan)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2007 19:33:52

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: paco peña alzapua (in reply to Guest)

Don't forget, that alot of flamenco music is also improvisational, and you will have to venture in to that eventually. Taking all the technique (ras, picado, alzapua, fingerpicking, etc.) that you have learned or will learn, and try to mix them up to make your own music, and your own styles of playing, that is eventually if you're not already there. Try also to maintain and explore compas and syncopation while your at it.

I find that this kind of exploration really does help alot in learning flamenco, or maintaining what you've got. With all the research that you may be doing it's a way to further your understanding of the music. You may use music that you know as a basis and point of departure, musically.

The most excellant guitar has influences with origionality, and of course, interperatation. One day you will get it if you work, and some of you may already be there. It really does help to break the rules once in a while, tune it up, and you're ready to play.

Also, if you can read and write music on stave paper, you can take notes on your own work. Writing out your ideas will help just as much. Comparing your notes with scores, and technique books, or other musican's notes is a whole world of it's own that is both fascinating and worth the while.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2007 2:29:51