B chords

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B chords

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HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

B chords

anyone want to take a stab at charting these here waters? ......here be dragons?

CORRECT FILE THIS TIME

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2008 16:36:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

Replied about PDF's in Alegrias thread. Basically, I need to buy this:
http://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php?pg=mac-version
To give you feedback on the chords, I already put up!

Just be nice and do both since you can export so easily.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2008 17:28:50

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

Hemeola.. i think you linked the wrong file. this be the old A chords again. I can chart all the chords if you like. but as you know, i can use some help in sorting and cleaning things up.

i'll give you the finale file whenever you want, but i'd like there to be just one version. the reason i want to do this is a. i want to help out b. i want a nice, editable/expandable chord chart for myself c. i want to explore the chords and learn to make use of them

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2008 21:38:44

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: B chords (in reply to mrMagenta)

I fixed the file at the top

Magenta, you are absolutely right, one finale file would be fantastic.

i really appreciate you doing this man, i´m adopting you too!

ricardo, a pdf, =)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 7:12:45

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ricardo, a pdf, =)

Thanks. Some corrections, but I am too tired now. For example, when talking #11 for Bb chords, always use that, no b5. And "function linear"? What does that mean? In most cases the B chords funtion as V7 or tonic phrygian. The Bb chords are functioning mainly as II chord in A phrygian etc. The spellings should reflect this. The last chord would be used as A#(b9), so you don't have B natural and Bb in the same chord.

Some fingering things, I usually barre with one finger the basses. And the standard notation spellings for things here and in bulerias too, all wrong. I know the computer does not understand the correct spellings, but the human transcriber needs to take care about that IMO. Otherwise, just do away with the standard notation all together.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 9:03:08

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: B chords (in reply to Ricardo)

functional linear in this case is a classical harmony expression.

I feel that it accurately describes the way the chord is used, for example someone looking at a phrygian, sees one flat and a key signature of dminor/fmajor. however it is not dminor, nor f major. so in this case the tonic a major has a major II chord most of the time

often enough tho, we use a tritone substitution for a 7 chord or a vii dim. these are what I am going to consider funtional linear chords. to spell them in a phrygian and assign them numbers is meaningless in this case because these few sound diminished or augmented but their spelling does not reflect it

either that or their spelling is whacked out that knowing all of its extensions is pointless because it functions as the II to the I or whatever

=)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 9:51:54

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

hey, ricardo and hemeola. i have the b-chords in the all chords pdf now. it would be great if you both would look it through when you get some time over. i've changed fingerings on some of the chords, but i'm sure there's still stuff to be corrected.

ricardo, why no Bb(b5)? it doesn't make sense if there is an F-note in the chord, but how about Bb, D, E?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 10:09:24

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: B chords (in reply to mrMagenta)

i disagree with ricardo on the b5 when the accidental happens in the lower register however when it is higher i agree with ricardo, call it a #11

by that principle, a bsus4 should be a b add11.
where in fact it is a sus4 which isnt named for its function as an 11, rather as a b chord with a suspended 4th which will resolve to b major. Fa to re.

I argue that a b5 a tritone from the root, is not a #11
this follows classic freddie green voicing form. b5.

i used it because its more accurate than #11. most jazz players think #11 and they play it higher on the b or e.

if i told you a b5b7 you'd know the voicing i was asking for had a b5 immmediately on the adjacent string to the root, a tritone away. it would be in the baritone register. a jazz player knows that a #11 is an extension and thus will play it as such on the upper strings.

Keep in mind that in the minds of many who will read this, a b5 is not necessarily a #11. not everyone knows those are synonomous. nor would most think to associate the two as being the same thing, in any register.

all of that is in a combo setting. in solo work anything goes eg: alan holdsworth lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 10:36:28

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

Surely you call it a half dimished when it has a diminished fifth. Changes in register effect the effectiveness of voicings (particularly in band and orchestral arrangements ) but they do not affect chord function.

Another problem is that chords played por medio can often have an A in them and that makes a Major seventh with B flat. Half diminished is a seventh chord which has a dominant seventh (A flat). A move to A flat through minor through the chord of Eflat alt would encourage me to view it as Bflat half diminished, little else would.

I think is important to remember that the naming of a chord is influenced not only by the notes which were played but also by the ones which were available but not played (in this example A). That may sound a little weird but what it means really is that naming is a function of context.

I have never heard anywhere before that register affects the function of a chord. If you are sure of this please elaborate (I have a hat and some salt and pepper ready ). For example you would not call a half diminished chord or minor sixth chord an augmented eleventh just because the trition was on top.

D.

PS a chord is suspended when it has no third. An eleventh chord has a third ( or at least the possibilitly for one to be included, a sus chord doesn't.
D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 12:50:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: B chords (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

ricardo, why no Bb(b5)?

Scale is A Bb C (C#) D E F G. Bbmaj7=BbDFA. So Where is the b5??? (Fb). E is not a flat 5 in this context. Just because there is no F natural in the chord, does not mean the note E can be correctly "misspelled" as Fb to equal a b5 in the chord naming. It is a #4 or better named #11. Keep it simple is my point.

quote:

functional linear in this case is a classical harmony expression.

Classical music does not use modality. Please don't think of the phrygian tonic the same way you think of the V7 or viidim in the relative minor keys. Different thing IMO even though the notes take on a similar spelling and sound. Flamenco is not classical music based. Tonic has to have a special position in the harmony of the music.

quote:

i disagree with ricardo on the b5

Disagree all you want. The more this becomes an argument about correct music theory, the further away from flamenco we get. The point I had all along was to distinguish the flamenco voicings from your typical jazz/classical chart style chords. If you want to argue a b5 is more correct than #11 etc, then we are really straying from the point of flamenco "harmony". This is not jazz. Even still, b5 is "bluesy", a #11 is "lydianish" or something. Hope you get my point...you can imply the wrong "vibe" by giving the wrong spelling.

Sus4 implies the 3rd, major or minor is deliberately avoided. Add11 you can have the third still there. In the case of flamenco phrygian tonics (B phrygian here), it is important to imply the major 3rd. It is NOT a sus4, the 11th is added by the open string ringing out.

Anyway, I am not trying to impose my theory ideas on you guys. The thing is, you need to think about the context of these flamenco chords and why they are special and different from jazz voiceings. Honestly, there is not a need for even trying for a "correct" theoretical spelling, because the maestros of flamenco guitar don't use them. It is just for me, I don't think it is helpful to imply a "wrong" scale view of a chord. Remember chords are made from scales.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 16:04:01

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

I understand what you are saying, and i've thought about it. I will use your suggestions regardless. I disagreed, but I know better than to ignore you guys. (as a sidebar, i've been working on my attack lol, jk flo!)

I trust you guys to be correct. that is never in question. I really appreciate that you are taking this kind of time to check this stuff out. and ricardo aside from the fact that most of your posts on alegrias and bulerias have been way over my head so far, i thank you for taking the time to contribute! it really means alot =)

But who is this book for? if its for us, then I needn't be revising and putting it all shiny nice into a book. needn't be naming chords at all, its already done.

If it were for flamencos... I think they'd all laugh lol. whats the use in naming a chord? these were originally organized under letter names, just a b c etc. no distinction beteween qualities, major minor.

this project isnt just the chord book, it goes with the realbook. to me, the target audience is either total beginners who may have picked up a mel bay book here or there, or jazz/classical players.........guys who are prettttty darn familiar with western harmony.

its not like we really need a snazzy version on the foro, we all ahave the original lol

either way, its written in english, unless someone whose spanish is far more eloquent than mine should care to offer up his services....... but that sitll limits the demographic even further

my plans for distribution are by free ebook. and if the demand is high enough, printed copies sold at cost.

basically i'm saying, most of the viewing audience is either totallyl inexperienced or already from a western harmony background. in any case the amount of literature out there that supports a mode based flamenco harmony background development is slim in comparison.

probability says the more jazz spelled we make this, the more accessable it will be.

I will of course, still be using your spellings, and i thank you for catching the mistakes. it takes a keen eye, and i'm mostly concerned with just producing material right now!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 16:29:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

my plans for distribution are by free ebook. and if the demand is high enough, printed copies sold at cost.

Cool. What's my cut?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 16:33:33

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: B chords (in reply to Ricardo)

what kinda cut you want?

lets see, i'm handling the legal stuff, lawyer fees expenses, printing, copyright, production, engraving, and editing.......

to produce a chord book with your name in big letters, and a big photo of you on the cover of the chord book, to be included in another book, with your name in it and another photo of you, with a paragraph explaining how you're the best thing on earth since sliced bread.

........... to be distributed to all the flamenco speaking peoples of the planet.

still want to talk money?

okay, you get 50% of all profits. of a book sold at cost if it ever makes print lol. if you wan't to make money off of this, tell me now. because you published all of this stuff online already. there's no copyright to hide behind. i can stop production if you want. as far as intellectual property being protected, that ship has sailed lol. i can gaurantee you if we dont get some laws on this this **** is going to show up in someone elses book. at least this way we have a chance

though, consider this is free publicity, at no cost to you except the mild annoyance of dealing with us =).

you don't have to pay a single cent. and your glorious work gets published.

better call a photographer. i expect something you'd be proud to have on the cover of a book

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 16:49:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

You can't copyright chords or chord progressions. But we CAN copyright my photo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2008 3:26:54

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: B chords (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

(Ricardo) This is not jazz.

quote:

(HemeolaPerson)
probability says the more jazz spelled we make this, the more accessable it will be.

To jazz players.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2008 4:41:01

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: B chords (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

Estevan:

quote:

(Ricardo) This is not jazz.

quote:

(HemeolaPerson)
probability says the more jazz spelled we make this, the more accessable it will be.

To jazz players.

the very name "realbook" says jazz-friendly. the format says jazz friendly. anyone who is going to need this book is probably not already into flamenco so far that they are not western minded anymore.

i don't want this to be an esoteric volume of gobeldygook that only means something to those in the know.

i'll go with what ricardo says, its his chord book. but ultimately i'd like people to get into the mindset that this whole project is designed to help people understand what they do not already know by being accessable.

in most places, accessable has alot to do with western harmony.

mind you this isnt a one stop shop, its a spring board, people can learn all the jedi stuff when they get a real flamenco teacher.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2008 7:56:50