CARLOS MONTOYA

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CARLOS MONTOYA

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JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

CARLOS MONTOYA

Hi,
Compared to some people on this site, I don't know that much about Flamenco guitarists. So I wondered if anyone else can tell me if they've heard anything by Carlos Montoya. There are quite a few recordings available by him (see www.Amazon.com ). But he seems to be getting mixed reviews... some people say he's the best Flamenco guitarist ever. Whilst others completely dissagree.
I've never heard any of his stuff, so I can't judge. But I'm considering buying one of his CDs to see for myself, although I'm not really sure which to start with. If anyone has an informed opinion, I'd be interested to hear it. Thanks.

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 10:40:15

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

From the the samples on Amazon's site, the recording quality is so pathetic that even a cheap $10 mic could do better. Could be Amazon's doing though. But to be honest, I would rather stick to his uncle, Ramon Montoya, or someone like PdL, Pena etc. The samples seem to showcase his rather unrefined techniques and barely any duende, but once again, this could be due to the recording quality. My point being, get a Paco Pena album

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 12:25:25

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Skai)

Skai,
You are right... I have heard about the recording problem quality. And apparently it's NOT Amazon's doing, but rather the recording studio's. Apparently this guy HAS got okay technique, but the sound quality ruins the enjoyment of some otherwise reasonable songs. But bear in mind that these are probably old recordings, using poor equipment.
I'm fairly familiar with PDL, but wasn't familiar with Ramon Montoya or Pena. If you can recommend a good Paco Pena album to start with, that'd be helpful

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 13:01:09

Jeff H

Posts: 39
Joined: Jan. 21 2004

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

With my limited experience with flamenco I am reluctant to make comments about players, but I will make an exception for Carlos Montoya. Oddly an experienced player and I were discussing him over the last few days.

I have found a few older 33 RPM vinyl records; 2 Sabicas, 2 Montoya and some Segovia.
With respect to Carlos Montoya he is a shell of Ramon Montoya. He may have had some technical lessons from his uncle but the rest of it, the soul, the musicality did not transfer. He is an automaton, very little feeling. He also overdoes it with golpe and vibrato (not tremolo). The two recordings were one live in a performance, the other in a studio. Of course there were the requisite "Ole's" and "bravos" but I suspect from and inexperienced non flamenco audience. The studio recording was as if it was a midi or a synth. Some decent riffs on occasion but otherwise uninspiring. Cold and dull.

When friends were getting into flamenco back in the early 60's, C. Montoya was talked about but it was Sabicas and Serrano that were getting the attention and the raves. The two Sabicas albums I have are from that period, outstanding. Not only is Sabicas technically superior to C. Montoya but the
soul and musicality comes across even in the old mechanical recordings.

C. Montoya is worth listening to but I would not buy any more of his recordings ( I spent $3 each for these and it was too much) Listen to and buy Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, Sabicas,
Serrano and one of my favorites: Paco Pena.

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 13:55:08

Jeff H

Posts: 39
Joined: Jan. 21 2004

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

For a recommendation of Pena..

"Paco Pena: Flamenco Guitar"

Nimbus Records

This is a 2 CD set..
The first CD is 11 pieces showing the various styles

Soleares, Alegrias,Bulerias
Serranas
Tientos, Tangos
Fandangos de Huelva, MAlaguenas, Granadinas
Sevillanas,Peteneras
Guajiras

The second CD features the virtuoso styles of Ramon Montoya (Salazar) and
Manuel Serrapi Sanchez ( Nino Ricardo )

From the liner notes :
" Montoya is the lyrical musician, (and) the born artist who chose flamenco guitar as the vehicle for his genius"

"On the other hand Ricardo...could never have been anything but a flamenco guitarist, for flamenco was his life-blood. "

"May this recording be a humble tribute to their memory and to the enormous contribution to the art of flamenco guitar"
1987 Paco Pena

Get it, you will like it.
One of my favorite recordings

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 14:08:05

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Carlos was Ramon's uncle, but they were not close. Carlos, it is said, made a point of it not to learn anything at all from Ramon, to make his technique and his flamenco his own. Well, it shows.

I would say do not waste your time listening to Carlos unless you have a lot of it. I have tried on numerous occasions to listen to him but I find him intolerable. There is something about his playing that is very annoying, perhaps it is his lack of compas or the simplicity of his musical ideas.

He is not really to be compared to Serrano or Sabicas...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 14:36:19

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Jeff H)

Thanks everyone,
The overwhelming response so far seems to be that Carlos sucks. And I'm assuming that y'all are more experienced than myself in the Flamenco genre, so I'll take your word for it and try one of the other guitarists mentioned like Pena.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 15:38:10

Jeff H

Posts: 39
Joined: Jan. 21 2004

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

The advantage of that particular Pena CD is that he plays his own way on the first CD then plays
the way Ramon Montoya and Nino Ricardo played. Every cut is brilliant and inspiring

Note: I suck...
Carlos Montoya was skilled but not particularly good by consensus, and less than inspiring.

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2005 18:29:19

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Actually it was the other way around. Ramon was the uncle of Carlos. Carlos and many other family members lived in the home of Ramon Montoya. Rosa Montoya (whom I accompanied many years ago) is the niece of Carlos Montoya lived there also. I believe Ramon passed away in 1949.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2005 1:11:51

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Ramon Montoya refused to teach his nephew anything about the guitar. Carlos took it upon himself to learn what he could. Carlos was excellent at accompaniment and accompanied Carmen Amaya, the greatest female flamenco dancer I know of. Carlos could keep great compas and played well.

When Carlos moved to the United states his wife suggested he begin a solo career as a flamenco guitarist. It is said that Carlos was the first flamenco guitarist to tour and introduced many people all over the world to the instrument and music of flamenco.

I have many recordings of Carlos Montoya on LP’s and CD’s. Some are great while most are not. It is when Carlos played accompaniment and recorded that he did well by any standard that we may hear today.

By the way Carlos Montoya and others from Spain were very encouraging to me and I will never forget them! Carlos was a very shy but real person willing to share his knowledge with others interested in flamenco.

You might inspire me to search for recordings I consider worth listening to of Carlos Montoya.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2005 1:22:19

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Carlos Montoya golpes are just too ridiculously rough I must say LOL But personally, I don't see why the recordings should have any excuse for being poor, even the recordings in Sabicas' time were better.

Paco Pena's stuff is 'pure and traditional' in the solo flamenco guitar sense. Love him, very very enjoyable records, easy listening too.

To start off, Pena's compilation album, Essential Flamenco Recordings is just beautiful. The bulerias, tangos, the 2 cante tracks(can't remember what forms they were, one of them being a tanguillos), the zambra the rest are amazing. And surprisingly, including the farruca duet

If you want value for your money, this is a 2-cassette album remastered into a CD.
The zorongo is great, so is the tientos, guajiras, farruca, verdiales, bulerias, rondena, everything!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002F0MCY/qid=1107403924/sr=8-8/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl15/102-2144152-4702507?v=glance&s=music&n=507846
Anyone knows who taught Pena the guitar? He doesn't have superbly string technique like PdL shown in this old album but still VERY good all the same.

If only I could get hold of the album Jeff was talking about, I'm in flamenco desert here.
Anyway Tom, why was his uncle unwilling to teach his own nephew? Something unusual I must say. Btw I'm sure we got nothing against Carlos Montoya but listening to the recordings critically, it's just not worth a listen (well at least those solo ones on amazon aren't worth it).

Skai

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2005 3:15:38

Jeff H

Posts: 39
Joined: Jan. 21 2004

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Hi Tom,

Can you recommend a Carlos Montoya recording ??

Skai .. If you like I will buy and send the Paco Pena " Flamenco" CD to you...
you can figure out how to pay me anyway you like...

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2005 15:50:13

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Jeff H)

Skai,
Amazon.co.jp might have the CD. If not, Amazon.com do ship worldwide... provided you have a credit or debit card, that is. If not, I'd offer to get you the CD too, but it's probably cheaper if Jeff gets it for you through Amazon.com than if I get it for you through Amazon.co.uk.
If you want an easy way to pay Jeff, try www.Paypal.com ...its free to send money, so long as the sender and receiver are both members (membership is also free). Plus, a credit or debit card isn't essential, so long as you have a bank account of some sort.
Anyway, I have ordered a copy, so if you really can't be bothered with the hassle of buying it from overseas, let me know and when mine arrives, I can burn you a copy for free.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2005 16:05:23

Mark2

Posts: 1882
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

The recording I would recommend is called "Giants of Flamenco" mostly because it features Sabicas and Carlos Montoya every other cut. :-) It was the first flamenco record I ever owned, and while I started out liking both players, I came to realize who was the better guitarist as my knowledge increased. After a while I just skipped over the Carlos cuts. It also has a beautiful rondena by Sabicas complete with an orchestra doing the intro. After the orchestra dies down, you hear a rooster crow, and then in comes Sabicas with an amazing, heartfelt intro to the rondena. It is very different from the classic Ramon Montoya rondena.
Having said that, I do respect the work of Carlos Montoya. I saw him play once and he was a powerful guitarist. Also, despite his over recorded, hollywoodized solo career, he was a top accompanist before becoming famous. Finally, he was the first flamenco player to capture the imagination of the non aficianado public, and his fame helped make it possible for others to have careers as soloists.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2005 16:08:41

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Wow thanks for the offer you 2, really kind of you people to help me out. Unfortunately, I'm broke at the moment, I can't find a temporary job

I'm having my break from studying. Finished my 'A' Levels at the end of last year and I've been rotting at home ever since. What's worst is that I'm due for compulsory 2 year military service in April.

Thanks again for the offer Jeff and James, amazing how you people could actually trust someone you don't know over the net. I don't see how I could pay you without a bank account or credit card number though. I'm at the age where my account is still very much controlled by a mother

If you could think of something, then I'd gladly buy it through you later on. I like original copies, just to keep and display too. Currency is also a problem too, unless you want Singapore dollars LoL I could always change it but asking for about USD$20 from a money changer seems quite unusual.

Thanks,
Cheston

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2005 2:12:22

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: CARLOS MONTOYA (in reply to Jeff H)

Jeff;

The audio quality of each recording (track or cut as you wish to call it) varies in quality and volume. There are some interesting examples on these CD’s and I would place them in this order:

The Art of Flamenco
Flamenco
Tango Flamenco

Montoya was famous for his theatrics. He would play segments of some palos legado (left hand only) with his right hand raised high. We called Carlos Montoya “The Carpenter” and Sabicas “The Angel”, which described the right hand technique of each man and the sound produced.

If you went to a concert to see Carlos play you would be entertained! If you were with Carlos at a group gathering then it was a very different world. When Carlos played accompaniment “he did not get in the way of the singer or dancer”. He played very well and led the way for other concert solo flamenco guitarists.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2005 0:44:45