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I'm new on the forum, and have been reading through the archives and frequently people refer the Phrygian mode. However Flamenco doesn't play in phrygian mode at all, does it? Otherwise if we were in the Key of for example C it would be playing an Em to get the phrygian sound.
No rather it plays (mostly) using a scale (I'll call it Flamenco scale) which is really like the major, scale, but with the 5th alternating between normal and sharp (G/G# if in C). So if in C, we'd be playing the Emaj chord (not minor)
I only bring this up, because going from having some Jazz theory, I sat down trying to learn Flamenco, by playing stuff, and trying to emphasize Phrygian mode. BUT it simply does not work to do that. However when I really looked at it and simply started playing the major scale and altering the 5th then it works. And I can shift keys, and it's the same note that get's sharped (mostly.).
Anyways, just for the sake of clarity, dumping use of the term "phrygian" on the forum might be usefull because I have found it nothing but a source of confusion.
Ok, greet away. And clobber me now if you feel I'm crazy about this.
Ok, that makes sense, and essentially what I had figured out. However, I must admit that it took me a while to figure this out. Because E Phrygian is of course EFGABCDE (no G#), but flamenco is playing the G both ways. As you say this is E (Spanish) Phrygian.
Basically if somebody comes from a different musical background, though this is confusing, because in a lot of the posts it is simply refered to as Phrygian.
When you play the guitar it's rather obvious which one sounds right, and which one not. I started trying to figure it out, basically just looking at the Am, F, G, E chords (Por Arriba?) and obviously the E does not fit if playing a "conventional" Phrygian mode, BUT it does sound right for Flamenco type music . But indeed Em the "correct" chord doesn't sound right at all.
SO if I interpret this right, Por Medio, is basically like sliding the entire scale up five frets, and played a lot around A, Bb, Dm, etc. and mostly with chords created around the first three frets. Obviously a fifth fret barre'd A would fit, but looking at some of the tabs, etc, I don't see people playing much beyond the first few frets.
But of course, in your reply Duende, you neglected the "G", so the explanation you provided isn't quite that accurate either. However, I think I've got it now.
Hey you're a prolific video/tab producer, how about putting some basic (i.e. really simple) compas examples? Or maybe somebody else could?
Sort of a "Here plays this repeatedly forever, and that's basically Bulerias Compas, etc.".
I have a teachers degree in Jazzguitar. I know my theori. How ever there are diffrent traditions.
In the Harmonic minor scale you never mention the natural G simply because its NOT in the scale. In spanish frygian im sure you can use both G and G# since the Frygian key uses both. Frygian is a mode. like dorian and lydian. Harmonic minor is not a modal scale.
just like the melodic minor it´s a scale the has modes within the scale.
Melodic minor in A. a b c d e f# g# . In classical music you would make the sharp 6th and 7th naturals (g,f) going back down the scale.
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This is hard stuff! Don't give up... And don't make it a race. Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.
Oh, I'm not challenging you at all Henrik, I'm just trying to understand the method of putting note after note in flamenco style.
Actually I think romerito's explanation pretty much clear's it up. While what you're saying about the Harmonic Minor scale is true. It does not accurately reflect Flamenco, since Flamenco based on my limited knowledge include the additional note.
In any case I've looked at a bunch of your video postings, and you obviously know what you're talking about, because simply put you are a very good guitar player!
Ok to clear things up (maybe?) I have some good thoughts on this. (WARNING, NERD MODE ACTIVATED)
Phrygian is mode 3 of the major scale. Lots of middle eastern music, and Greek or Turkish music, even modern stuff using chords not drones, will use MINOR PHRYGIAN with Eminor as tonic (EFGABCD).
So for now think of it as mode 5 of the natural minor or Aeolian scale (ABCDEFG) The harmonic minor scale is ABCDEFG#. Mode 5 is called PHRYGIAN DOMINANT (EFG#ABCD)
Just like in the key of A minor, you will change the accidental note (G# is NOT in the key signature of A minor) depending on the harmony/melody.
So the Spanish phrygian as refered to correctly (by Romerito), combines both the natural phrygian or minor phrygian mode, with the phyrgian dominant mode. (EFGG#ABCD). The changing accidental functions EXACTLY the same as in the key of A minor. But FLAMENCO makes use of even more notes from the chromatic scale, to colorize the mode. You will also find D# used frequently, F# to imply a parallel mode change (cambio), and typical subdominants will come into play like in tonal music (Bb note to tonicize F chord for example)
So the real question is does one consider flamenco to be TRUELY MODAL music, since it uses tonic and dominant relations. Even when coming to rest on E (phrygian) as tonic, there can be a V-I type movement (F7-E, where Eb or D# pulls up. This the idea behind Augmented 6th harmonies).
My personal view is Flamenco is unique in that it uses Tonal Ideas and chord movement, but with MODAL tonic. So it is a weird hybrid, East meets West. It is very hard for westerners to get used to what sounds like a functioning V chord in minor, to be the TONIC. Rhythm plays a big part in helping the ear feel the resolution.
So sorry if this wordy. The basic thing is Spanish phrygian is a mix of natural prhygian and phrygian dominant, but the catch all term "PRHYGIAN" is good enough for conversation, since in terms of flamenco (not jazz or other world music), you will only encounter major, minor or "phrygian" tonics. (alegrias, farruca, solea, for example). Just like in jazz you can say "Altered scale" instead of "super locrian" or "mode7of melodic minor". Context.
Ricardo
To help here is modern bulerias by Vicente called "Mandaito". The tonic or place of rest is C# major (capo 1, so it sounds like D maj on piano). This is spanish phrygian. But notice how often he also makes use of natural phrygian melodies and even rests on C# minor chord. It is not resolved in the flamenco way there, a very meloncholy flavor, but you can maybe see how the 2 scales mix.
Ricardo beat me to the D#, which throws the neatness of the spanish Phrygian for a loop. Gypsy players in particular seem to find dissonances that they hammer without mercy to create the "flamenco" sound.
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