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A church is burning
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Piwin
Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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A church is burning
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Pretty crazy (and sad): https://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2019/04/16/pariss-notre-dame-cathedral-disfigured-images-of-fire-and-aftermath-shocking-the-world/#25ce3e052545 Dunno what happened. Back when the cathedral in my home town burnt down, the fire started because they were welding metal components over the wooden frame. The pyrolysis spread for quite a while before reaching a section exposed to air (if memory serves the workers had already left the site for the day). So when there was finally a real indication of what was going on, it was already too late. But that was decades ago, I kind of figure they must have found some work-around to that problem by now. One of the luthiers on here (sorry but I forget who) talked about how he viewed the wood he worked with as part of the life cycle of the tree, taking on a more holistic view of the raw material he works with. The upper frame of Notre-Dame, known as "the forest", included wood from the original frame (which had been replaced, but some of the original wood was reutilized), wood from trees dating back to the 9th century AD. Most of that is now ash. Still, that's quite a life! Lots of history in that place.
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Date Apr. 16 2019 14:40:08
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Piwin
Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh)
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Not disagreeing with you, but there is an upside for the taxpayer. Notre-Dame belongs to the State, so the restoration work would be paid by public funds, i.e. the taxpayer's wallet. So if rich people, either French or foreign, want to pay for it, that's fine by me! @tele It's hard to make sense of the numbers that have been coming out on "attacks" on churches. The numbers given by the Ministry of the Interior lump everything in together. So in that number you have cases of vandalism/stealing, even a few cases of actual violence, and then you have things like a group of teenagers graffitiing an anarchist "A" on the outside wall. The Ministry also doesn't give us a breakdown per "reason", so, if we just take the case of graffitis (which I'm guessing is a pretty big share of it), we don't know whether (to take the 3 big ones) they're drawing swastikas, anarchist symbols or some anti-Christian message motivated by belief in Islam. It does seem to be getting worse, but my hunch is that it's not nearly as dramatic as some are making it out to be. As for Notre-Dame, I won't exclude the possibility that it was an act of willful destruction until they've investigated, but it seems very unlikely, just going on the fact that this type of accidental fire on the roof section of a church is unfortunately fairly common.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Apr. 17 2019 14:59:01
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: A church is burning (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
Cheap tickets to heaven available. Ticket Office open. Of course they could invest that money in creating sustainable economies in poverty stricken areas which would lead to better education, health and security. But that doesn't come with quite the same publicity I take your point, flyeogh, but Notre Dame is part of the cultural heritage not only of France but indeed of Western Civilization and the world. I have no problem in people contributing to its restoration, be they wealthy or not. Frankly, there have been billions of dollars and untold numbers of man-hours spent in aid projects in the underdeveloped world and much of it has been wasted, not least because, in my opinion, development requires a critical mass of certain cultural attributes in the targeted population that by and large is missing. Until a country reaches a certain level of income, a certain size in its middle class, and has genuinely cemented an institutional framework that includes the rule of law, a rational economic system, and other attributes that lead to development, throwing money at it does little good. There are other things in much of the developing world that impede its advancement such as a low level of social capital, the widespread belief that it is a zero-sum game (my neighbor's gain is my loss), and lack of follow-through once the initial aid projects are completed (ever see what happens to everything from buses to heavy equipment when it is not maintained? It usually stays on the side of the road forever). A critical mass is needed for development to occur and be maintained, and I'm afraid much of the developing world lacks it. We cannot do it for them. The best we can do is assist on the margins, but they must do the heavy lifting. In any case, I am glad to see people of whatever means contributing to the restoration of one of Western Civilization's and mankind's treasures. Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Apr. 17 2019 18:32:14
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Piwin
Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: A church is burning (in reply to Ricardo)
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Dunno, but the hashtag "JesuisQuasi" made the rounds for a while ^^ The Abbé Pierre fondation has thanked donors but asked them to contribute "just 1% more to help the needy". Abbé Pierre's funeral was held in Notre-Dame. This was largely seen as a peace offering from a Church leadership that despised the man, to a French population who, religious and non-religious alike, adored him, to the point of almost creating a myth out of him. His body now rest under a bronze cross that he had found in a dump. I'd imagine that if he were still alive today, he would have some strong words to say to the Church leadership about where their priorities lie. His focus was mainly on the homeless. And it is still a sadly striking fact that there are many people living and dying on the streets of Paris, while there is an increasing amount of perfectly habitable buildings that remain empty, merely used for speculation on the real estate market. @Ruphus no worries. I'm just not in the mood to go down the route of "the plot against Notre-Dame and against Christianity" (not you, but geez I swear some people...). Ffs the man apparently doesn't see the contradiction in saying "the doubtfulness (...) of the know-alls"... To me it's a pretty good indication that someone is merely speaking out of hatred when the criticism is voiced equally for the exact opposite qualities... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Apr. 18 2019 16:46:45
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flyeogh
Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
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RE: A church is burning (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
For instance, the spire that fell was built by Viollet-le-Duc in the 19th century. Apparently his spire was quite different from the one that preceded it. So there are some open questions as to what should be done, even if the decision is to stick to the "traditional" architecture of the cathedral. Should they rebuild the Viollet-le-Duc spire or rebuild the spire that was there before that? Piwin a good point I think. Here a couple more: How can it be rebuilt to be less likely to burndown again (or be subject to future natural forces or manmade forces such as pollution)? How can it be improved to have better acoustics, or any other way it can be more easily used by the people (e.g. tourism, arts, education)? My issues with the very large donations (and bear in mind they are no more than promises at this time) are: Who are they trying to impress? The people, the church hierarchy, the French state, god. Will the donations be anonymous? Will those who donate want a payback? And out of interest I'd like to know if they would offer similar amounts if the Palace of Versailles had been burnt down? Or even if the only large hospital in a friendly developing, poor country had been the subject. I have nothing against public funding, or the church or French state contributing. And large anonymous donations from private people as long as we know it isn’t laundered money or from dubious sources. But how come the press are saying that Donald Trump will personally contribute, and the ArcelorMittal company are offering to help? Are we meant to believe there is no promotional benefit to these people? But maybe I’m just sceptical.
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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
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Date Apr. 19 2019 18:40:18
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