Compas Again &#$@*&^%

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Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

Compas Again &#$@*&^%

By this weekend I will have worked my way through the first part of Graf-Martinez Methods, Vol 1. Now I would like to go back and overlay some of the simple pieces with the correct compas. But I don’t want to do this if I’m not playing the correct compas for that palos.

I have read and studied everything that all you folks recommended in my original compas post and listened to the examples on Sal’s Soap Box, many, many times. Still, I’m very confused. So what I’d like to do if you will allow me to is to ask you guys to overlay a compas on these simple pieces for me each time I encounter a new palos.

Here is the first one:

A Solea in 3/4 time. Each measure has 3 note groups, each group containing 2 1/8 notes. Here is my understanding of what is accented (I’m starting on beat 1, not 12 which makes no sense to me at all.)

Accents on: 1, 4, 7, 9, 11. This, I think, is the same as 12, 3, 6, 8, 10

Is this correct?

Here is the second one:

A Tangos in 4/4 time. Each measure has 4 1/4 notes. Now each source I reference tells me something different. One source says to accent only beat 1, another source accents 1 & 3, while another source accents 2, 3, 4. So which is correct, any or all of them?

Thanks. Understanding compas is very difficult for me and I sure as heck don’t want to start out wrong.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2006 11:05:00

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Compas Again �$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

Yes in Solea you start on 1. 12 is the last beat of the compas, and there is allways an accent (on12). You "can" make an accent on the one and 4 but the accent on 3,6,8,10 and 12 still exist. Many Falsetas have accents on 4. But the 3 is the regular accent.... Hard to explain.. In llamadas you often have accents on 1 and 4. But when you go on the accents are again on the regular beats.

In Tangos there are 2 accents. On 1 and on 4. 1 is allways there, only the one on 4 is often more silent. I never heared about accents on all 4 beats.

Ok that was not very good explained, but I hope it helped a bit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2006 12:46:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

Stop counting. I have no idea WHAT it is you are counting without hearing you play. Just play something, let us hear it, then we will tell you specifically what you are doing wrong, using counts or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2006 15:10:38

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

quote:

Accents on: 1, 4, 7, 9, 11. This, I think, is the same as 12, 3, 6, 8, 10

yes they are the same. But why do the 1,4,7 thing?

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2006 15:49:14

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Compas Again �$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

Gecko, forget about moving the accents around, it WILL make it harder. I did the same (mistake).

The accents in most palos are: 12, 3, 6, 8, 10

What changes is just where you start; Buleria on 12, Solea on 1, Segiruiya on 8,...

Seriously, since I count starting on 12 I began to understand Buleria.

And I wouldnt do this "each measure has x notes" - its easier to start with single strokes (punteados) with the index finger. In solea that would be 2 strokes per beat, down and up "1 - and - 2 - and - 3 - (and)..." you can skip the last "and" if it sounds easier.

But most importantly: relax man, try to feel the rythm, try to speak it loud, add your own melody to it to memorize it better, choose a falseta you really like and which you could hum by heart and try to hear the compas in it.... there are so many ways.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2006 16:14:41

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

quote:

By this weekend I will have worked my way through the first part of Graf-Martinez Methods, Vol 1.

Personally, I like to suggest that a student find a good CD of a palo to work on that is traditional. There are so many ways to express flamenco. Try to master one palo at a time. To heck with finishing a book! Work on one palo and be serious about it. It is better to play one palo correctly than an entire book in an improper manner.

It does not matter how complex a palo you play – do it correctly and you will enjoy it!

To me flamenco music is about feeling. Understand the feeling and emulate it.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 1:58:03

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

quote:

quote:

By this weekend I will have worked my way through the first part of Graf-Martinez Methods, Vol 1.

Personally, I like to suggest that a student find a good CD of a palo to work on that is traditional. There are so many ways to express flamenco. Try to master one palo at a time. To heck with finishing a book! Work on one palo and be serious about it. It is better to play one palo correctly than an entire book in an improper manner.

I think the Graf-Martinez method is very good for a beginner. I'm impressed that you seemed to have worked through it quickly. It really focuses on Solea & Tango w/ a lil Rumba for variety.

Here's what Chuck said on your previous thread:

quote:

IMO, the reason for counting is to understand how the 3/4,6/8, and 3/8 measures fit together within the two tempos (beat on every count - e.g., slow Solea taconeo acompaniment - vs. beat on every other count (e.g. Bulerias 3/4 cycle).

I use Arabic mnemonics now - One example por bulerias:

3/4 Dum teka tek teka dum tek (repeat, say, 3 times followed by a resolution phrase)
6/8 Dum teka teka Dum teka teka

resolution phrase:
3/4 tek dum dum teka tek

Siguiriyas:
3/4 Dum teka Dum teka Dum teka | teka Dum tek teka Tek |

BTW, even though notationally the 6/8, 3/4 format is correct vis a vis accentuations, I prefer to think of it as two measures of 3/4 with a "hiccup" on the count 7 (The Dum in the second measure above.) This means the compas cycle resolves on count 10 as in Bulerias - in fact, the second measure is sometimes used as a variant of a resolution phrase for bulerias (dancers do Pellizcos on 6,7, and answer on 9,10), as well as the other Bulerias resolution phrase variations (7,8,10), (6,8,10), (6,9,10) Guitarists can do rasgueos (e.g. triplet "Marote" rasgeo)....

His input is golden, I think when you understand where he's coming from, you'll have no problems with compas. "Dum teka Dum teka Dum teka"...i love it! I was using a different method (refer to my reply in your other thread), but I have since switched - thanks Chuck.

Here's a link to his site again. I have learned alot there.
http://users.aol.com/BuleriaChk/private/compas/compasa5.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 3:11:36

Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

Thanks everyone. I understand that many of you don’t count, now that you are experienced players and have the feel of compas. Well, I’m not experienced, don’t currently have the benefit of a teacher, nor anyone else in my area that plays flamenco and at this point could listen to all the CD’s in the world and not be able to pick out the palos or the compas.

So far the time being I need concrete examples as a simple starting point. As I play and listen to more music I’m sure I will grasp compas better and become more flexible. I'm certainly willing to put out the time and effort to learn. Thanks to Phrygus and Doitsujin I know understand the 12 count cycle a little better and realize that there are some palos that start the count on 1 (Alegrias, Soleares, etc) and some palos that start the count on 12 (Bulerias, Guajiras, etc) . The Tangos, I’m just going to go with a 4 count accenting 1.

My next point of confusion concerns time signatures and some apparent ambiguities in flamenco, but I will start another thread on that. Perhaps my rather ridged classical training is not serving me well in some of these areas. Please bear with me!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 11:26:22

dyst0pian

Posts: 43
Joined: Jun. 7 2005
From: Quebec, Canada

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

Being pretty much on the same level as you, having played flamenco for about a year or so, finished the first graf martinez book. I am currently travelling spain to learn more hands on and one thing i learned that makes learning compas a lot easier is just tapping your foot. I cant beleive most books dont even talk about it, It really helps to not get lost within the rhytm when your starting out, specially when hitting a lot of notes during pulgar or picado, i dont know if your trying that already, but just practicing something really simple and tapping your feet for soleares at every beat really helps to make it flow easier.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 17:39:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to dyst0pian)

Right on about the foot tap. More important than how you read write or count meter, is how you feel the beat, and that is clearly revealed by watching the foot tap. For most students, it is tough to coordinate playing or clapping with the foot, but it is really important. When it comes to understanding WHERE the beat is being felt, a video with a master guitarist tapping his foot is invaluable. Check out the ENCUENTRO vid series and pay attention to the foot tap. If you find the guitarist is tapping his foot on unusual beats comparing to the score, it is a good indication the meter is written WRONG. For bulerias, alegrias, etc, the way to notate the meter is debateable. A lot of scores follow the counting the dancers use, but that does not give the feeling of the actual beat (what meter is SUPPOSED to show). Watch the foot.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 21:24:32

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Compas Again �$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

I dont know how it is in the books, but the foot tapping is mentioned in the Martinez DVD Volume 2

I wonder how important foot tapping is. Should one train it even when the more complicated things, like rasgeo, picado, seem impossible to play with taping?
There are also different ways of tapping, maybe Im tapping wrongly?

In any case tapping every beat seems hard. Maybe every 2 or 3?

Ps: Foot tapping has imo the advantage that you can "cheat" with it. Sometimes when you get out of compas without knowing, the foot tells you where to go

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 21:38:37

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Compas Again �$@*&^% (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Sometimes when you get out of compas without knowing, the foot tells you where to go

I find it almost impossible to go out of compas when i use my foot.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 21:57:58

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

Just a thought, it's always confusing to think in terms of numbers. How about just listening instead to

x x X x x X x X x X x X

It's certainly unusual enough when you think in terms of accents, and the numbers make things even worst! Just my thoughts.

______________________________________

As a related side question, for example when I play tangos, I'm not consciously doing xXXX or Xxxx. I'm just playing it after listening to many recordings and accenting whatever feels right. I do this for other palos as well. Is this actually considered as doing it wrong? Or is it better to think in terms of feel rather than following a strict set rhythm?

Good luck,
Cheston

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2006 23:59:26

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Compas Again &#$@*&^% (in reply to Gecko)

Just for the record, I've only been 'playing' flamenco since appr. July '05, no teacher, not even all the way through the first Graf-Martinez book. Fortunately for me, compas isn't going to be my weakest link - picado on the other hand.

Good luck, Gecko. No le dejes!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2006 0:41:54

dyst0pian

Posts: 43
Joined: Jun. 7 2005
From: Quebec, Canada

RE: Compas Again �$@*&^% (in reply to XXX)

True true it is in graf martinez 2, but i dont know why hes making you learn all these falsetas in the first book without compas. On the question about foot tapping i can only play soleares right now in compas, and tapping my foot every beat is not so hard, i think your suppose to tap every 2 beat for tangos, ( wich is the next palos i want to learn ) i have no idea as for the other ones

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2006 14:49:55