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Looking for intermediate level Solea
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Piwin
Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Looking for intermediate level Solea (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
really? Sure, there are some little bits of it that are straightforward, but a lot of it is murder for the left hand I pointed that out...though I wouldn't say "a lot of it" is hard on the left hand. Just a few passages. And at the exception of the very beginning, most of those passages are actually easier played with capo on 1st fret (stretches during the tremolo or during the final picado run). Though tbh I wouldn't have any trouble showing the passages high up on the neck to let's say an "advanced beginner" either. Playing high up on the neck is not an advanced technique that you will somethow get better at by playing stuff lower down on the neck. It's something you just have to start practicing to get better at it, and the earlier the better IMO. I put this in "intermediate" because, although it has some technical challenges (which as I said you can modify if they're too hard), these are pieces that are straightforward: you can write it down easily, the compas is easy to find, the dynamics are crystal clear, etc. Stuff like Pepe Habichuela's Resuene are easier technically speaking but a b*tch to play rythmically. Much harder IMO. And if Cuando canta el gallo is an "Advanced piece", then how do we classify stuff like Gloria al Nino Ricardo or Calle Fabie? Uberuberadvancedneverattemptthisshitinyourlife? I've been to many local "schools" here where Cuando canta el gallo is the first "full piece" they teach to beginner students, once they've gone through basic technique and compas. I honestly think you'll get more out of playing a piece like this, and adapting it if need be, then playing anything a Juan Martin ever wrote. Anyways, it was just a suggestion that he can take or leave. I'm sure he can figure out for himself whether this is at his level or not.
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Date Jul. 7 2017 17:30:29
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estebanana
Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Looking for intermediate level Solea (in reply to Cervantes)
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Pepe Habichuela's Solea from 'A Mandeli' nice. If it were me, I would take a few sections from Ramon Montoya, a few from P.Pena, and a few from Sabicas and Pepe and others and put them together. One straight Solea from one person...meh. Sabicas' Bronce Gitano has lot's of good stuff and probably better tremolo sections than anything. But why tremolo? Not needed. Bronce Gitano has a few nice picado runs that are not super crazy, but still require attention to play well. Anything from Mario Escudero is solid and oten works seamlessly with Sabicas material. Pedro Bacans solo material is burdened by it's textural density, but if you can cop some of his alzapua off live or studio recordings you got some bad a$$ material. Alzapua, in my opinion is not about copying a particular falseta by one person, but about having the technique ready to use were you learn to fit it in. For example you learn a falseta one way, when you play it you play it the way you learned it, then make a second pass and change the ending to alzapua. When you learn a set piece without the concept of repeating and tweaking passages you miss a lot. My first teacher was a long time student of Escudero, the next one a friend and student of Pedro Bacan, then I spent a great deal of time with David Serva, a considerable amount of time with Juan del Gastor, some lesson with Chuscales when he came to town and quite a lot of time sponging up Jason McGuire's work with him just casually showing me ideas. None of them really advocated learning a set piece. They all said more or less accumulate a lot of good material and then learn about the ways to present it in context. Also in solea, there are dance escobillas that have arpeggio and alzapua, that work in solos as transitional sections to faster tempos or a buleria ending. All that stuff is golden and useful. And learning a good close is important, most set pieces have a typical kind of orgasmic alzapua close which is kind of a cliche'. You can close a solea with gravitas with a thoughtful and carefully played simple ending. An example would be Serva's solea solo in his solo CD. Also a must listen because of the masterful integration of material from so many other artists that you hear, but it's been totally 'Davidized'. There's also the brain teasingly uncomplex Diego del Gastor falsetas, a few of them are emblematic of Moron style, and also reach back into the depths of time. And are difficult to play. Easy to play technically, fun to learn, but difficult to make them really work. That challenge is worth the time. When I think intermediate solea, I don't think set piece, I think learning taste and how to manage putting material together and beginning to tweak it around yourself. Probably worth mentioning too that ALL the Nino Ricardo and Melchor de Marchena work playing solea for singers should be listened to for the way they weave falsetas in and out with marking time. Even if your're playing solos that stuff is gold the standard for that era of guitar playing. And if you're headed into Jerez stuff later the the famous 'London Anthololgy' is a required listening for the solea. The nice thing about the Pepe Habichuela A Mandeli solea is that it is a gateway into modern playing, but not super daunting. The positions it introduces and the chord textures are more 'modern' or as modern as you get until you bring 'the jazz chords' and you can get the texture with a little work. it will take hot chops to play that thing, but the parts you can mine out of it are really valuable. I tend to think there is a cut off point to blending very contemporary falsetas and ways of feeling compas with older styles of falsetas. To me it seems better not to try to mash them together. Putting the old stuff and new stuff together is tricky and does not always work, unless you have a lot of mastery and experience. I think that is a confusing route, and a place you arrive at naturally later on.
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Date Jul. 8 2017 6:23:14
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Looking for intermediate level Solea (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
And if Cuando canta el gallo is an "Advanced piece", then how do we classify stuff like Gloria al Nino Ricardo or Calle Fabie? Uberuberadvancedneverattemptthisshitinyourlife? I never said it was Advanced, and I've no doubt Gloria al Niño Ricardo is harder (though I can't really compare as I've never learnt/played it), and seen from THAT perspective I can understand why you would call Cuando Canta el Gallo "straightforward". I was looking at it from the perspective of the first recommendation of Paco Peña's Santuario, which is almost all in 1st position, which only has a few barres up to the 5th position, and is overall considerably easier! I think it's a big jump from that to Cuando. I think this raises the question of "grading" in flamenco, when nearly everything we hear is played by working professional musicians. So there is actually very little that is true beginner stuff. Paco Peña's Santuario is from a set of "intermediate" student repertoire. In the end maybe it is a personal thing. I don't have too much trouble with the stretches, so play Cuando open, but still find various passages that require barré in high positions difficult. There are two passages in the intro with half bar at 10th, and then stretching the pinky out to the 14th while holding it, and later, after the tremolo there is bar A maj chord at 9th position and following D minor and G7 chords at 10th position. Also I find holding the barres harder in the tremolo than the stretches. It is a good practise piece for me.
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Date Jul. 8 2017 8:20:12
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Ricardo
Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Looking for intermediate level Solea (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Pepe Habichuela's Solea from 'A Mandeli' nice. If it were me, I would take a few sections from Ramon Montoya, a few from P.Pena, and a few from Sabicas and Pepe and others and put them together. One straight Solea from one person...meh. Wait a minute, a short managable falseta from each player that inspires the student, arranged or improvised into some random order all together into a single short solo piece based on the traditional form? No, no, no, this is no good, too much like THE ACTUAL MAESTROS ARE DOING IT......no, this was supposed be a single chosen pieced learned from A to Z as it's only INTERMEDIATE level. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!!!!!!!!!
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jul. 12 2017 14:21:18
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Looking for intermediate level Solea (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo quote:
Pepe Habichuela's Solea from 'A Mandeli' nice. If it were me, I would take a few sections from Ramon Montoya, a few from P.Pena, and a few from Sabicas and Pepe and others and put them together. One straight Solea from one person...meh. Wait a minute, a short managable falseta from each player that inspires the student, arranged or improvised into some random order all together into a single short solo piece based on the traditional form? No, no, no, this is no good, too much like THE ACTUAL MAESTROS ARE DOING IT......no, this was supposed be a single chosen pieced learned from A to Z as it's only INTERMEDIATE level. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!!!!!!!!! Does indeed sounds dangerously like what i was doing at the time :-). Yes, as 2th/3th year student i did indeed ear play that complete piece of Paco Peña i quoted previously and played it to him during 1 or 2 lessons....... but only because he tasked me (us) to ear play a complete piece of him for once. After i performed that task i continued playing my usual 'soleares in progress" which started with learning very simple variations learning the compas and the techniques and once i entered intermediate level i just combined material from all sources to my likings. A huge part from my soleares was taken from Vicentes childhood soleares which i it's own was a combination of various sources as well, combining his teachers (Sanlucar) compas variations with falsetas from Sanlucar, Paco de Lucia and others (if i remember well the first falseta of that Paco Peña piece was a variable part of Vicentes childhood soleares as well). I freely combined it with material from Paco Peña, Paco de Lucia, material composed by myself and whatever came on my path and was likable and playable. As Stephen said, it was first of all a play garden of learning what makes Soleares Soleares and developing the skills to combine material to my likings wile keeping an eye on the total picture and good taste. My first attemd to compose a soleares was this intro. All players i knew at the time (Peña, de Lucia and Pepe Habichuela) had an intro starting on 7th position so it seemed a good place to start: --------------------------------------------------0---------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------7~9---/7----/~7~7~7------------7--9--------- ----------------------7-/-9~10----------7----------------7-/9~10--------------- --/7---/~7--8~11-----------------------8---------------------------------------- ---0-------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------- ...1.......(2) ................3..................4......(5)...............6......................... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --/10~9-9~7-/7------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------~10-10~9-/9~7--7~10-/9------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------8------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------0------------------------------------------ ...7...............8.................9.................10........11.......12 --------------------------------------------------0---------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------7~9---/7----/~7~7~7------------7--9--------- ----------------------7-/-9~10----------7----------------7-/9~10--------------- --/7---/~7--8~11-----------------------8---------------------------------------- ---0-------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------5------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------5-------------/5----------------------- --/10~9-9~7-/7---------------------------------5-----------5---------------5------------ ------------------~10-10~9-/9~7--7~9---------------/7------------7~9---------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------/5------------------------------------------ ...7...............8.................9.................10............11.......12 -----------------------------------------------------------7----------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------6---------------/6----------3-- --/9~7-7~5-/5--------------------------------------7--------------7---------5~7----- ------------------~9-9~7-/7~5--5~7~9~7--/5-------------/5----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...1.............2................3.......and...........4.......and......5....and...6....and. ----------------------------------------------------------5---------------5--------- --------------------------------------------------------4-------------/4------------- --7~5-5~3-/3--------------------------------------5------------5--------------- ---------------~7--7~5--/5~3---3~5~7~5-/3------------/3-------------alzapua > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..7..............8..............9.........and..........10......and......11....12 It took me about as much time to compose as one needs to play it (and for that reason it was probably already made a million times before) but even worse, when it came to quality playing i could not play it good enough and on top it did not fit the rest of my soleares at all So i composed another intro which fitted Vicentes childhood intro (also the beginning of my solares) very wel --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------0--1--3>-/5---/~5------------/5---------------------------- --------------------/2-------------------------------4-------------------------------- -----------------2-------------------------------3------------------------------------ --------------0------------------------------------------------------------------------ -/----/-x-0-----------------------------------4--------------------------------------- ....1..2.and to the/3 and to the 4......(5)and to the 6 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------2--3-~3~/2------------------------------------------------------- -----------2-/~3-----2----------3~2------------------------------------------------- --------2-------------2-----------------5-/4------------------------------------------- -----0-------------------------------------/5---/---/---------------------------------- -/3-------------------3-------------------------------------------------------------- ..7................8.................9..............10....11...12 --------------0--/1~3~1~0-------------------0------------0------0----------(0)----- ----------3--------------------/3~1~0~3-/1-----1--------------------/1~1~----0-- ------2------------------------------------------------4----------1-------------------- -/3---------------3--------------------------------------/2--------------------------- ----------------------------------------------0---------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------0---------0~0-------------0------------0------------- -------------------0----0/---------------------0------------------/0----------------- -----------0~/2-----0-----2~2~1----------------1------------0-------------------- --------3-------------------1-------3-----------------/2~---3----------------------- -----3----------------------2--------------------------------------------------------- --1-------------------------1-----------/0-------------------------------------------- after which i would continue with Vicentes childhood intro: -/7~5-----7--/5~-3-----5--/3~1---------/0----------------------------------------- --5-----5------3------3-------1----1---3----------------------------------------------- --4-------------2--------------2-------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -/0------------------------------------------/0----------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I quite often used well known material turning it into something special one way or the other. In this falseta made for the dance for instance i play a tarantas kind of pull back chord heading to 6 and 12 ------0----------------------0-------------------------------------------0------------ ----------1--------------1------/3--1--0--3-/1(~3~1)~0------------0--0---------- -------------2-------2------------------------------------------------0------0-------- ----------------/2---------------------------------------------------4---------/4----- -/0------------------------------------------------------------/2--------------------- ----------------------------------------------/0-------------------------------------- ...1................2...................3...............4.............and..5.....and.........6 ------0----------------------0--------------------------------------------0----------- ----------1--------------1------/3--1--0--3-/1(~3~1)-~0-------------0--0--------- -------------2-------2-------------------------------------------------0------0------- ----------------/2---------------------------------------------------4---------/4----- -/0------------------------------------------------------------/2--------------------- ----------------------------------------------/0-------------------------------------- --------------------------------0---------------------------------------------------- -------------------0----0--------------------------0------------------0-------------- -----------0/~2-----2----/-2~2~0------------0---------------/0------------------ --------3-----------------------------3-------2-------------2----------------------- -----3-------------------------------------------------/3---------------------------- /-1--------------------------------------/3----------------------------------------- ..1...............2...............3...............4.....and.......5...........6 -------------------------------------------/0~0--------------0-------------0--------- --------------------0-----0-----------------------1--------------------/0------------ ------------0-/~2----2-----/-2~1~0---------------0--------------1--------------- --------3-------------------------------3----------------/2----~3------------------ ----3--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- /1----------------------------------------/0---------------------------------------- So, small changes of well known material can give things a very personal twitch. --0~0-------------0--------------0----------0~1------------------------------------- --------1-------------1---------------1------0-----3~2-/0-----/~0------------------- -----------4-/~2--------2-/~0----------0---2-----------------------------etc-------- ---------------------------------------------/-3---------------------------------------- --0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Around the same period of time (about 30 years ago) i composed my first soleares falseta: -----0---------0------------------------------------------------------------------ -/3-----3--/3----3-/3~2~0------------------0----------------------------------- --2---------------------------/2-------/2~1----/2------------------------------- --3---------------------------------1------------1------------------------------- -/2-----------------------------------------------0------------------------------- ----------------------------------1---------------1------------------------------- ----------------0---------------/0-------0------------------0---------------------------- ----------------------------------------0---------------/0-------------------------------- ------------/2-----2-/2~1-----------1------------1--------------------------------------- --------1--------------------3--------and----/2--------------------------------------- ----0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- /1------------------------------/0--------------------------------------------------------- ---------------0------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------/3----3-/3~2~0------------------0----------------------------------- --------2---------------------/2-------/2~1----/2------------------------------- -----3-------------------------------1------------1------------------------------- -/2-----------------------------------------------0------------------------------- ----------------------------------1---------------1------------------------------- ----------------0------------------------0------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------/2-----2-/2~0-2->-/4~4-----------------/4--------------------------- --------1-------------------------------------------3-------------------------------- ----0--------------------------------------------2------------------------------------ /1------------------------------------------/-3--------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------1~0--------------------------- ------------/-0~2--0---------------------------------/2~0-------------------- --------3--------------/3~2-0--/-2~0----------------------3/--------------- -----2-----------------------------------3-/ x--------------------------------- -/3----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..1............2............3............4............5..........6........... ---------------------------------------0---------------0-/-0---0--------------------- ----------------------------------------------------0------0----0-------------------- -------------/0~4~0-/1~0-------------------/1----------1----1-------------------- -/x--2~3--------------------3------------2---------------2----2-------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------/0--------------------------------------------------- ...7............8............9...........10 that last part with the breaks was inspired by the PP soleares i ear played. i also came up with a lovely remate ------------------------5------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------6------8-/6~5-6-7-/8-----/~8-------------------------------- ---------------/5-------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------7--------------------------------------------4---5------------------------ -/x x--5------------------------------------------------2--/3------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...(1).and the /2................3............/4......./(5)..and 6 ----------------/1~0----------------------/0~0------------0-----------------0------ -------------3---------3~1-/~0------------------1--------------------/0------------ ---------2------------------------2~1---------------2--------------1---------------- -/x--3----------------------------------3---------------/2----~3-------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------/0------------------------------------------ ..(7)..............8................9................10
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Date Jul. 12 2017 15:32:56
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