Two beats short

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Two beats short

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FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

Two beats short

Just to be sure, isn't the falseta from 15:05 to 15:31 two beats short?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 21:52:38

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

correct

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2016 23:16:14

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Two beats short (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Ok, so now my real question. Do you guys notice this kind of stuff when you first listen to it?

I listened this particular falseta a couple of times without knocking on the table and had no clue it was off compás. I only noticed it was missing two beats after I listened it more carefully and counted it.

Just curious on how often this kind of situation happens and nobody even notices.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 9:06:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FredGuitarraOle

Ok, so now my real question. Do you guys notice this kind of stuff when you first listen to it?

I listened this particular falseta a couple of times without knocking on the table and had no clue it was off compás. I only noticed it was missing two beats after I listened it more carefully and counted it.

Just curious on how often this kind of situation happens and nobody even notices.

I have listen to PDL buleria "La Tumbona" zillion times and never noticed it has 9 beat falseta in there until Doitsujin pointed it out with a score. Sometimes music just flows fine because of how it is book ended. Sabicas, Niño Miguel, Niño Ricardo, Manolo Sanlucar, all guilty of these "anomolies", so don't feel bad amigo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 10:34:46

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Ricardo)

I always thought some of us here were a few beats short of a full compas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 17:17:02

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

Did you guys see the one finger tremolo in 14:00!!!

He´s only using his index...

Thats pretty neat

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 17:34:24

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

It's easy to notice these if you're clapping along with your foot. Of course this usually doesn't happen on a professional's CD, but there are many pieces in which there are compáses 3 beats short, or there are extra 3 beats added.

I remember a heated conversation on the foro years ago when some people said that the extra beats in Paco's La Tumbona were a "mistake". Funny, because since then I've transcribed several pieces with similar "mistakes" in them :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 18:44:48

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

quote:

Just to be sure, isn't the falseta from 15:05 to 15:31 two beats short?

Yeah, but how and why are the more interesting questions to me. The way it fits in compas is interesting. Either he started two beats early on ten (that is what I think) and the whole falseta therefore ends two beats early. Or, he begins where he is supposed to (12) and eats two beats somewhere.

As an exercise, one could play it both ways. If you begin where he begins (on 10) then you have to tweak/add two beats in there. A good place is in the remate. Or, begin two beats later (12) and don't tweak anything.
Since the point is to learn, you could also start on beat one and most of it fits. THen tweak the remate.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 19:20:33

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Kevin)

Kevin, the falseta clearly starts on 10. If you start it on 12 it doesn't feel right at all. It's on that ligados lick before the remate that he messes up and misses two beats. Further ahead on the video he plays that falseta three more times with other musicians but he changed that phrase and it fits the compás just fine.

What puzzled me was how it sounded so natural. Apparently, as both Richards mentioned, this isn't as unusual as I first thought. I'll definitely check that thread about La Tumbona. Still, your views on this aren't quite clear to me since you referred to this as "anomalies" and "mistakes". I'm curious on whether you consider this compás detail acceptable or worth correcting.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 21:07:57

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

quote:

What puzzled me was how it sounded so natural.

I always hate the semantics in the "where does it start" question. Falsetas don't have agency, people do. A great guitarist can start a falseta anywhere and tweak it. He clearly begins on ten in that example (which I stated).
It sound perfectly fine beginning on twelve with slight matiz adjustments.

The other option I gave is to start on one. The point is, falsetas are not these static things to always be played the same (at least not in the hands of my teachers they never were...that made it incredibly difficult at times to learn their material).

quote:

What puzzled me was how it sounded so natural.

Because you can fit a falseta almost anywhere depending on the shadings you give to it.
Also, you seem to be addressing one of the Richards with your final question?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 21:22:01

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Kevin)

quote:

Also, you seem to be addressing one of the Richards with your final question?

And anyone else who might want to share an opinion on this, of course :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 21:46:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

quote:

Further ahead on the video he plays that falseta three more times with other musicians but he changed that phrase and it fits the compás just fine.

Well, there is your answer right there amigo. In PDL's case as well, subsequent recordings and live performances show a "fixed" version....implying the original needed "fixing".

In the case of Niño MIguel and Sabicas examples, they both have opted to repeat the "mistake" as is with palmeros all confused and having to adjust to it at the remate.

If it matters, I once gave some of these examples to a Gitano cantaor to listen to, and asked him (wondering if he would say it's ok cuz they are either Spanish maestros or gypsies) if he thought the falsetas were OUT of compas....his response was "...Totally!!!!"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 22:08:03

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Two beats short (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

quote:

palmers

Aren't they called clappers???

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2016 22:10:07

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Ricardo)

In Alain Fausher's Nino Miguel book "Guitarra Gitana" he lists the non-standard compases in the preface. If you were learning one of those pieces would you spend more time practicing those funky compases as they were recorded, or, insist on fixing them somehow, or learn to get through them both ways?

I'm so used to hearing the intros to his solea and fandangos as they are any "fixes" just seem wrong

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 2:08:23

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Dudnote)

Personally I'd make them fit in compas. Most of us will not be granted the leeway that Spanish pros would be given and would simply be labeled as someone who has poor compas.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

In Alain Fausher's Nino Miguel book "Guitarra Gitana" he lists the non-standard compases in the preface. If you were learning one of those pieces would you spend more time practicing those funky compases as they were recorded, or, insist on fixing them somehow, or learn to get through them both ways?

I'm so used to hearing the intros to his solea and fandangos as they are any "fixes" just seem wrong

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 16:47:31

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Mark2)

In most cases I try to fit them into compás, but sometimes it's not possible, most often when these are truly mistakes that were never intended. That's usually very obvious when I listen to them closely.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 18:07:30

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

Most of us will not be granted the leeway that Spanish pros would be given and would simply be labeled as someone who has poor compas.

Super important point.
Plus, for those that accompany, it is just not practical to play those "incomplete" compases when working in different group contexts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 20:01:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Two beats short (in reply to Kevin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin

quote:

Most of us will not be granted the leeway that Spanish pros would be given and would simply be labeled as someone who has poor compas.

Super important point.
Plus, for those that accompany, it is just not practical to play those "incomplete" compases when working in different group contexts.

I agree...only in the rare occasion of guitar solo (meaning totally alone on stage or whatever) should someone attempt to recreate the compas "mistake" as recorded. Even still, it would be wise to know two versions such that if an aficianado gave you any stink you can demo both versions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2016 20:17:28