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ALBUMS TO AVOID...
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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J,
I can't say that anything is particularly "bad"..
It might just not interest me from my own taste or point of view..
I was in Madrid when JM was playing for amateur dancers in the dance school up the Amor de Dios street, about 200yds from my pension.
There were a lot of pretty good guitarists around there at that time, (most of them Japanese if the truth be told.)
And Juan was just one of them.
I think to make a living, Juan had to get onto the coat-tails of Paco Peña in Britain.
Paco was a real "live wire" and worked hard giving concerts and appearing on TV variety shows etc as a "spot" act.
And he was really talented...
Most of the concerts I attended...he was in his late twenties or so.
He was really fantastic!
Juan Martin never had the same sound...never the same excitement in his stuff.
Much more "stodgy" and " Look...I'm playing exactly in compás!"...but it was a bit boring IMO...
(Maybe the English upbringing had something to do with it?)
I don't begrudge the man making a living, but his stuff just doesn't excite me.
Especially those "Zambra" sort of open tuning things. ..
(Can't stand them , myself....I sort of feel I'm being "spoken down to" or something..)
I'm only going back to my own recollections, and as Tom has said, he did a very enjoyable concert in the W.Coast USA recently..
I suppose it takes me back to Britain in the 1960's, when things opened out a bit and suddenly everything weird was great...really kosher stuff....
Ravi Shankar lecturing from the stage that he would not play anymore if folk in the audience continued to smoke. (wakky bakky) LOL!
It was a turmoil of a time in the mid to late 60's and everybody was into new experiences be it Indian Ragas or Spanish Flamenco.
Even the middle aged "culture vultures" were out in there droves at these new "socio-cultural events.
So that's where Snr. Peña made his name...and he is the real thing IMO!
Paco Peña, when he wants to be, is a totally fantastic Flamenco guitarist.
Juan?
He's done helluva lot to promote Flamenco guitar and I would never doubt he's a really sincere person and a dedicated Flamenco player.
His teaching methods have inspired and helped many followers of this complicated and fantastic art throughout the world.
So that's something more than many of you reading this have done...
so....Ole his Eggs! 
cheers
Ron
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 4 2005 21:24:37
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Ron,
I hear what you are saying and respect your opinion as someone who knows A LOT more about Flamenco than I do. The reason I thought it might be useful to start a post like this is that it is often hard for a newcomer to tell what is good quality and what isn't. Just a couple of months ago I made a post about a guitarist I heard about called Manitas De Plata and I had members that usually don't even make regular posts telling me how bad he was.
Every now and again, I log onto the forum and see new posts from new members that have "just discovered Flamenco". Usually they only own one or 2 Flamenco albums- most often its Paco De Lucia's "Ontologia" album (I know thats where I first started) and to them that is the beginning and end of Flamenco (as they know it).
To be honest, I have been listening to Flamenco for quite some time now, and even still I have trouble telling what is good quality and what is not. I only own one Juan Martin album, but as for commenting on the finer points of his technique and duende... I would not be a good judge. Obviously it is partially subjective, but there seems to be a general concensus (amongst the more knowledgeable Flamenco afficionados I've spoken to) that some guitarists like carlos Montoya and Manitas are not prime examples. So I'm guessing its not 100% subjective.
The idea with the "best" and "worst" posts was to try and guide the newcomers like myself toward what those more knowledgeable might consider to be the prime examples of Flamenco.
Never the less, I try and keep an open mind, so I may still go to the Juan Martin concert in London in December and see whether I like his playing. I'm sure there would be some members who think Juan's work is great, and has inspired them to learn Flamenco (as you said).
Phrygus,
I'm afraid I'll have to exercise my freedom of thought on that one. I did buy the Ciudad De Las Ideas DVD, and whilst I didn't enjoy all the songs, I thought "Tres Notas...", "Ciudad" and "Compare Manuel" were pretty good. 3 good songs out of 9 wasn't that bad, as some albums have none!
Thanks,
James
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 4 2005 22:30:36
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
Phrygus,
I'm afraid I'll have to exercise my freedom of thought on that one. I did buy the Ciudad De Las Ideas DVD, and whilst I didn't enjoy all the songs, I thought "Tres Notas...", "Ciudad" and "Compare Manuel" were pretty good. 3 good songs out of 9 wasn't that bad, as some albums have none!
No, that was freedom of speech :)
But its ok, we seem to have more or less a comparable view on this album.
"Compare Manuel" is also a average-good track; i had forgotten to mention it.
Actually i bought it to gain a more diverse experience/view on Flamenco and Flamencoguitar, beacuse at that time the only Flamenco albums i had were all Pacos (but all his stuff from 60s-94 or so).
The result was that i learned to appreciate and like Pacos music even more, how funny is that?
So when someone is interested in flamenco(-guitar) and asks me what flamenco is, or which artist i would recommend him, i would say Paco is the best choice, particularly regarding the Art of guitar.
_____________________________
Фламенко
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 4 2005 22:47:06
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Skai
Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004
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RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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While I absolutely love Paco Pena, I don't exactly enjoy this album by Juan Martin entitled Camino Latino. I deeply regret saying this as it was a special gift from someone and it was a Juan Martin recital that sparked my flamenco interest.
The album is basically his pathetic attempts at bossa nova and other latin stuff which highly pisses me off. I got anothe rone of his albums and this one consists of flamenco tracks, and I rather have a CD with true flamenco, not jazzy modern stuff or Spanish sounding tracks. Then again, it has the essenco of what Ron mentioned. A lack of excitment and a sound that says 'Look! I can play just like a flamenco metronome!' or 'I'm a robot programmed to play flamenco techniques in compas'.
He's got all his techniques down, better than what many can do. He's in compas. Then what's the problem? It lacks any drive and it's void of feelings.
On the other hand, Juan Martin's recital was outstanding. Everything just traditional flamenco as I like it. I didn't understand flamenco then and everything sounded the same, but I knew that that was going to be one of my main musical directions, all because of Juan Martin. I don't doubt his sincerity as a person and as a teacher, and I'm sure he'll probably be one of the great teachers around. But his albums just don't reflect all this.
As for PdL, I recognise his amazing creativity, musicality and technical skills. But I honestly don't enjoy his music, I can't even sit through his so-called 'greatest hits' CD called Anthologia. What I can really enjoy and listen almost without skipping is a Pena CD.
On the opinion on Misa Flamenca, I don't exactly consider it a good choice for beginners, neither is it actually bad. It's actually quite interesting to have a 'choir' accompanied by Pena's guitar in the background. Not traditional cante, neither solo guitar, it's just different.
Cheers,
Cheston
_____________________________
Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 5 2005 14:36:23
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Skai
Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004
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RE: ALBUMS TO AVOID... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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I think that all these comments are really subjective, like mine on PdL. I've had the CD for almost a year already and certain tracks are horribly boring to me, it's like a bunch of incoherent notes and chords played by someone with amazing technique. There are of course superb tracks like Almoraima and Solo Queiro Caminar which top my list but tracks like Cancion de Amor, I feel are nonsensical, draggy and tuneless.
Again all this may not apply to others as I'm a melody oriented person, maybe due to my other main interest, classical. Rhythm is another thing I look out for and maybe that's why I enjoy PdL's bulerias, tangos, rumbas etc. ie. all those with relatively consistent rhythm. On that note, I must also add that I can't exactly stand his soleas. What I do worship is his rendition of Aranjuez. I can't find anything better, neither do I think it's possible to be any better. 
_____________________________
Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.
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Date Nov. 6 2005 4:43:20
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So different are our tastes. I like all 4 albums very very much. Ciudad de las ideas is my favouite coz of the perfect accentuations Vicente does. Aguadulce is a bit short but he plays very great. Gerardo is just perfect..so many new tunings..boh..thats courios. 
) 
All thanks to humidity here which can hit up to 80% and drop to almost 50% when I turn on the air-conditioning. 