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What Makes a Good Line ?   You are logged in as Guest
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guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

What Makes a Good Line ? 
I love the way different musics have a different musical language, grammar and syntax.

But there are some approaches to building lines which were popular in the late eighties and are still very much used/abused. Basically doing excercises which treat every scale degree as equal seem to disconnect the ear a little from any sense of harmonic development.

I guess there is a style where there is no harmonic progression implicit in the lines and it is called shred. I liked it once but now not so much. Over in the Kema thread I tried to answer Grisha's question 'What do you think about his playing ?'.

Like Grisha I found the technique astounding in terms of power evenness and in particular the very clear triplet feel. But also I felt shortchanged, as someone who enjoys improvisation, by the rather narrow pallete of ideas which he was drawing from in terms of line construction.

Sure I enjoyed the playing but thought that maybe the lines only came to life at the extreme end of vistuosity. And we've all got to be jealous and humbled by that ...right ? But a great line should sound great at even modest speeds.

But what makes a good line ? Any ideas or pet favourites ? Or maybe a hypocritical broadside at me instead ?

What makes a good line ?????

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 21:10:45
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
A great line clearly outlines the underlying harmony, while playing off it enough to be interesting. It asks a question and then answers it. It generally starts on an upbeat and goes somewhere. It introduces tension and usually resolves it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 21:15:39
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

A great line clearly outlines the underlying harmony, while playing off it enough to be interesting. It asks a question and then answers it. It generally starts on an upbeat and goes somewhere. It introduces tension and usually resolves it.


Cheers Miguel, that's one kind of line. But sometimes a great line can outline a triad other than that of the underlying harmony. Classic example 'After You've Gone' which (in original key of G) starts on a CMaj7 and then moves straighways to GtonicMaj7. Triads outlined Em7(Gpentatonic) and Bm7(Dpentatonic) respectively.

But forsure I agree that underlying a chosen tonal centre with enough complexity to allow a variety of interpretations thus allowing the line to fit into different but related harmonic settings is vital for me.

Maybe some favourite lines ?

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 21:55:00
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Maybe as individuals we find ourselves only being excited by the line constructions that we may never be able to contemplate and ultimately construct and execute ourselves..... to me things are often more like ear 'candy' when played well with a touch, feel, technique and musicality which is so far removed / advanced from my own that I just know I'd never get near it cause I can't create magic at that level.....those players are not all pros either. The stuff that just doesn't do it is often constructed in a way I feel I would play if I was at a more advanced level ....it may have the boring familiarity of my own playing style for example so doesn't really inspire. Then sometimes some things just can leave me cold even if the ability or technique is astounding there can just be a total lack of emotion or personality in the playing and its lost me.
The good thing is that there are so many different styles out there we should all be able to find something we like and want to aspire to cause those magic lines will keep coming from those totally different hands that we aren't attached to? ...the bad thing is we don't always all agree when it comes to sharing our opinions.
Is this what you mean D? Or am I at my usual retard comfort zone with this?

Best as always.
pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 22:05:25
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
worst line , ''whats a nice girl like you .....etc etc ...'''

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 22:06:23
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to pink) 
Hey Pink, I just read your post and though about another way of putting my question.

How do you find the lines that you would sing in a heartbeat ? You know truly sing if you had a voice worth listening to ( which I do not). What strategies have players here used for finding those, and I mean nuts and bolts.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 22:12:37
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

worst line , ''whats a nice girl like you .....etc etc ...'''


I think a good line has a minimum of two points. Three you've got a triangle, four a poem, one well...... make sure it is a different point each time.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 22:15:21
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
sorry.........

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 22:49:19
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Quote:
''How do you find the lines that you would sing in a heartbeat ? You know truly sing if you had a voice worth listening to ( which I do not). What strategies have players here used for finding those, and I mean nuts and bolts.''

A poignant way of putting that question D.
I've spent all day in a&e ....thought I was having a heart attack. Luckily OK.....meds I'm on produced symptoms like that of an attack so after lots of tests etc am back home and have pondered some stuff .
What words to sing.....for my wife children and other loved ones.....all that they are within one heartbeat, which is everything and more ,I take them in with every breath and they flow through me and make me ,me ...look at the eyes in a breath ,they can say it all.

With a guitar the magic comes from .........all the things that make us us
Maybe not the answer you were after but all I'm able to offer currently.

Best

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 22:54:18
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to pink) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: pink



With a guitar the magic comes from .........all the things that make us us
Maybe not the answer you were after but all I'm able to offer currently.

Best

pink


A fine answer and one that highlights the role of the listener well.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2013 22:57:19
Guest

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
A very common 80's line was finely chopped with a credit card.. Usually an inch long... Apparatus of delivery usually a delicately rolled $100 note..
Went out with a girl who was always powdering her nose...she never cared much for any lydian chromatic tonal explosions more into the bump and grind...
Ahh!...such Fondled mammaries.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2013 2:04:15
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to Guest) 
Ah so there we have it, I asked the wrong question.

I could have asked a different question still 'What makes a good line irresistible ? And of course the answer ..... it is much easier than talking about music.

So back to the Lard I guess.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2013 8:42:40
Guest

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Ok
Lard for chewing the fat
Besides last time I saw her she was under going nasal reconstruction

Ornamented arpeggios
Upper Triadic superimposition
Rythmic placement and Poly Rythmic displacement
Ascending and descending scale contrast or juxtaposition
Tonal or modal with chromatic passing tones
Intervallic motif
Groove
Power
Technique
Humour
Transposition and modulation

And most importantly
Intent

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2013 14:01:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
It's a matter of taste, firstly, what constitutes a "good line". AFter all I feel we can still generalize that it is mainly

RHYTHM/TIMING (a LOT can be said with just ONE note if you have advanced rhythmic concepts).

can't emphasize that enough.

Secondly is dynamics. Not just crescendo decrescendo but accents and subtlety.

Next "shape" which is the direction of the notes overall (up down, scalar, arpegio-like skipping etc.)

and finally where important notes land relative to all the rest executed (important notes being chord tones or extensions or deliberate out notes, etc, the TIMING is important again here, assuming your amazing line has more than one note).

My personal thing is how and when to exploit the minor second intervals....relatively speaking.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2013 15:07:27
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Sometimes there is no pre- set....no design its just in that mass of human who produced it.
I've said it before and I will say it again ...some people have magic fingers built into who they are....its there ,in them comes out .....lucky battlehogs!!!!!!!!!!
Many of us well raped piglets are only meant to be lackluster drones of those who went before....not always with success!!
The way of the world i guess!!
We all have strengths though....Mine...bull sh.i.te and that can be pleasing.
I don't think there is always a process to brilliance....some have musicality beyond the level of normality.... no structure just apparent.
We always want something we don't have . Yes some have the logic of musical design and that can be or is as awesome but I guess what I'm saying is that there isn't always a set process which has the result ,sometimes its just naturally in there and those who produce it can be as perplexed with the popularity as those others who are trying to achieve ...with or without a set way ,pattern or process.

Best with ramble

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2013 22:17:44
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to pink) 
Pink, I found this about Eric Cantona.

'Cantona was a strong, athletic footballer, who was two-footed and good in the air. He had great vision and awareness, making goals for others as well as scoring them himself. It was said of him that he really only wanted to score ‘beautiful goals’. There was certainly something artistic about his play, as well as a touch of genius. He was capable of creating time and space for himself and others. He worked hard at his skills, instilling into the emerging generation at Old Trafford the need for relentless practice.'

I was looking for a transcript of an interview where Alex Ferguson said something like (') I thought I knew everything a bout football until I met Eric Cantona. At the end of training he asked to stay behind and to have three players stay with him to practice set pieces and drills. (')

Genius is specialsiation, specialisation is work. Sure some guys have a head start but noone wins a race from their starting position.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 11:31:38
 
guitarbuddha

 

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


My personal thing is how and when to exploit the minor second intervals....relatively speaking.


You mean the ascending non-diatonic minor second ? I note that congruence can always be achieved by first rising above the target note before then descending.

Such a figure often makes any rhythm acceptable as the resolution is so strong.

Thanks for the list Val, in particular the note on intent, which is the thing always of course.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 11:35:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14892
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


My personal thing is how and when to exploit the minor second intervals....relatively speaking.


You mean the ascending non-diatonic minor second ? I note that congruence can always be achieved by first rising above the target note before then descending.

Such a figure often makes any rhythm acceptable as the resolution is so strong.

Thanks for the list Val, in particular the note on intent, which is the thing always of course.

D.


Not at all...I mean the DIATONIC super sweet ones....there are two sets normally in major key or modes of the major scale, two in the melodic minor scale/modes of, and 3 sweethearts in harmonic minor scale/key (from the dominant chord). Up OR down...and I use the term "exploit" which is ALL about the timing, and I use the term "relatively speaking" because I like to use em a certain way REGARDLESS of the harmony...(meaning not only for resolution). Often times the minor second locations help me create nice tensions against chords (maj7, #11, b9, #6 over minor, b5 etc etc), rather than your typical V-I resolutions (but of course that's nice too).


Like I said, it's a personal thing, not some thing from a rule book of improvisation or melody construction.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 15:51:56
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


Like I said, it's a personal thing, not some thing from a rule book of improvisation or melody construction.


True.We all gotta build and work to constantly expand and yet simplify our own rule book. Best to find things in real music and then try and imitate them to find the real rules that make up our own personal ear candy.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 17:29:47
 
pink

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RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Quote:

Genius is specialsiation, specialisation is work. Sure some guys have a head start but noone wins a race from their starting position



Except maybe the winner....who would have run the race a thousand times in their heads and won them all ,in the short wait before the race begins perhaps?
I don't know D.
What you think?

Best

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:14:02
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to pink) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: pink

Quote:

Genius is specialsiation, specialisation is work. Sure some guys have a head start but noone wins a race from their starting position



Except maybe the winner....who would have run the race a thousand times in their heads and won them all ,in the short wait before the race begins perhaps?
I don't know D.
What you think?

Best

pink



Why not ask Aesop ?

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:25:02
 
pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
He won't answer my emails or texts....although i have noticed a few small animals and inanimate objects have started to speak to me regularly.... I thought it was the old Belgian beer that was throwing that stuff into the equation!!


Best

pink
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:49:09
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to pink) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: pink

He won't answer my emails or texts....although i have noticed a few small animals and inanimate objects have started to speak to me regularly.... I thought it was the old Belgian beer that was throwing that stuff into the equation!!


Best

pink


Well here is a recent correspondance

I think the theme predates my adult (?) tastes.

http://childhoodreading.com/?p=3

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 2 2013 23:56:35
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: What Makes a Good Line ? (in reply to pink) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: pink

Quote:

Genius is specialsiation, specialisation is work. Sure some guys have a head start but noone wins a race from their starting position

Except maybe the winner....who would have run the race a thousand times in their heads and won them all ,in the short wait before the race begins perhaps?
I don't know D.
What you think?


As usual you seem to be full of wisdom :-).

Mental visualization worked for me. It was a very important part of the 40 hour workouts that i applied once a year as a flamenco student to "compensate" 48 weeks of "not studying". But it was not obtained/applied without effort. It takes a lot of focused study and concentration before you are able to play a complete piece using mental visualization only (as reel as reel can be, feeling every finger, the strings, there interaction, the guitar response and the sound). That's part of the (hard) work you mentioned in your first line but it is very rewarding.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 3 2013 0:57:14
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