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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

string tension/scale length??? 
Does anybody in here have any definitive figures for the relationship beween scale length and string tension?

I've seen seen several references to longer scale lengths requiring higher tension to achieve the same pitch with a given string. But how much higher tension is required? 5%, 10%, more? less?; whatever ????

As an example; what would be the approximate increase in required string tension for the same (average) string to reach a given pitch, if one went from 650mm to 660 mm, or even to 670mm in scale length. . .

And would it make any significant difference in feel and playablity. . .

Anybody interested?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 17:34:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: string tension/scale length??? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

Does anybody in here have any definitive figures for the relationship beween scale length and string tension?

I've seen seen several references to longer scale lengths requiring higher tension to achieve the same pitch with a given string. But how much higher tension is required? 5%, 10%, more? less?; whatever ????

As an example; what would be the approximate increase in required string tension for the same (average) string to reach a given pitch, if one went from 650mm to 660 mm, or even to 670mm in scale length. . .

And would it make any significant difference in feel and playablity. . .

Anybody interested?

Its been discussed in luthier section a lot. Personally, as a player, again, it's all about the action that affects the feel. Same strings on big guitar are not necessarily tighter feeling if the action is low. Conversely the short scale guitar feels tight and stiff if the action is too high.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 18:13:03
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: string tension/scale length??? (in reply to britguy) 
Keeping the same pitch and the same string, the increase in tension goes as the square of the string length. For example going from 650mm to 660mm means the tension goes up by (660/650)^2 = 1.031, or about 3%.

Changing string tension but keeping the same scale length typically has a bigger effect. Going from normal to hard tension typically involves a 6%-8% increase in tension, but this varies with string brands. It also varies from string to string. The high e might go up 6% while the D goes up 8%.

As Ricardo says, for playability, setup is generally a bigger deal than string length.

Putting a capo on the first fret and tuning back down to A=440 Hz like Carlos Montoya used to do, reduces tension by a little over 11%.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 19:28:35
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: string tension/scale length??? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ts been discussed in luthier section a lot. Personally, as a player, again, it's all about the action that affects the feel. Same strings on big guitar are not necessarily tighter feeling if the action is low.


I did a "search" before posting this, and it didn't turn up a thing? I'll try again. . .

Regarding your point about "it's all about the action that affects the feel" ; where does string tension come into the equation? Are these two factors mutually dependant. Does string height adjustment depend ultimately on string tension. i.e. if a guitar is set up correctly for low tension strings, is it not ideal if it were switched to higher tension, and vice versa?

Richard: You have some very interesting statistics on string length and tension that I never saw before. More or less the point of my post. Where did these figures come from?
Also the point about Carlos M. detuning to A440 when capoed. Very interesting. Is this very common?

(Now I dont feel so weird about tuning a couple of mine to A432. )

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 21:56:08
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: string tension/scale length??? (in reply to britguy) 
Hi britguy,
Iff you search on "660" you get load of posts
This is one of them:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=64518&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=660&tmode=&smode=&s=#64905

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 22:05:56
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: string tension/scale length??? (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

Richard: You have some very interesting statistics on string length and tension that I never saw before. More or less the point of my post. Where did these figures come from?
Also the point about Carlos M. detuning to A440 when capoed. Very interesting. Is this very common?

(Now I dont feel so weird about tuning a couple of mine to A432. )


First, Carlos Montoya: I don't remember where I read this the first time, but I sat up close at a couple of concerts and it was fairly obvious that he had a really low action, a capo on the first fret, and pretty loose strings, so I believed it when I read it. He may even have capoed on the second fret and tuned lower at times.

Second (and probably not very helpful), I was educated as a mathematician and physicist, and worked most of my life in those fields and engineering. The standard introduction to wave theory is a study of the mechanics of a stretched string, idealized to be perfectly elastic (i.e. lossless) and without resistance to bending. The theory actually comes pretty close to predicting the behavior of musical instrument strings, except for the energy being sucked away by being used to generate sound. This Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_string

copies what appears in lots of physics textbooks. There's some calculus in it, and some elementary physics.

You can get the result that for a fixed pitch and string composition, tension varies with the square of the string length from the second equation under the heading "Frequency of the Wave".

I did some work at various times over the years with the classical 3-D electromagnetic wave equations, so the stuff kind of stuck in memory.

The data on the difference between normal and high tension strings comes from the string manufacturers web sites, sometimes in a form that requires some algebra to calculate the actual tension.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 22:25:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: string tension/scale length??? (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

First, Carlos Montoya: I don't remember where I read this the first time, but I sat up close at a couple of concerts and it was fairly obvious that he had a really low action, a capo on the first fret, and pretty loose strings, so I believed it when I read it. He may even have capoed on the second fret and tuned lower at times.


Try 4th or 5th fret!!! Just look on youtube his guitar sounds like a bass and he has capo way up there...makes ligados like butter.

About action and tension...yes if you like a low action first try lighter tension strings before you file or change the bone. Conversely if your guitar is too buzzy, before shimming up or getting a new bone, try harder tension strings. Mainly basses, because hard tension trebles tend to be fat and tubby, and don't have bright snap needed. But it sure makes a difference. Glad Richard had some math on this, big difference between 8% and 3% in terms of playing.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2013 13:54:36
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