Flamenco from Cordoba

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Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

Flamenco from Cordoba

I have been trying to categorise (not extensively) the origins of different toques and cantes in Flamenco. What I don't understand is why so little seems to originate from Cordoba. Considering the moorish influence on the city, the fact that the first Arabic music schools in Europe were founded there, the story of Zyryab, the wealth of historic Flamenco artists from the city, The cordoba flamenco festival, the conservatory of flamenco etc. why does so little flamenco actually come from Cordoba?

Consider the malagueña and verdiales from Malaga, Bulerias de Jerez, Granaina (fandangos de granada), Zambra and Tangos de Granada, Sevillanas and solea de Seville, Alegrias and Tanguillos de Cadiz, fandangos de Huelva, Tarantas de Cartegena, siguirillas from Jerez and Triana....where does cordoba fit into the flamenco story? Is it because the gypsies were settled mainly in Cadiz and Granada from the 1500s? It seems to me to be a missing piece of the story. What are the Cordoba palos? I can only find reference to Cantiñas de Cordoba as a flamenco form.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 15:32:52

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

It's a good question. I had already thought about this before and searched for answers, but haven't found any. I never heard of Cantiñas de Córdoba, can you post a video or a recording of one please?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 15:49:40

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)

There are very few youtube examples of Cantiñas de cordoba. I have some recordings by various artists on CD and vinyl. Apart from the lack of "triti triti tran" the notable feature is the modulation to the minor key in the letra.

Also this is just a variation of cantiñas rather than a seperate flamenco palo. Are there any flamenco or even non flamenco folk forms whose origins are from cordoba?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 20:48:04

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

BUt Alegrias de cordoba ""??....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 20:59:31

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

The answer has to lie in Cordoba itself, I think your onto something about it not having a huge Roma population historically, worth looking into definitely.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 21:06:56

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

with all the soleares specifications, I was sure it would have had at least something from Cordoba. Indeed Norman's site provides some input in that matter.
http://www.canteytoque.es/soleares.htm#cordoba

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 21:09:03

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to El Kiko)

KIKO - I agree thats confusing. I found 2 sources that say the Alegrias de Cordoba is named incorrectly and in fact it should be called cantiñas de cordoba

"Una variante comarcal de las alegrías son las cordobesas, muy melodiosas, que en verdad no deberían así denominarse: lo correcto sería, cantiñas de Córdoba."
"a local variation of alegrias are the cordobesas, very melodious, which in truth should not be so named: the correct (name) should be cantiñas de cordoba"

"Aunque se vienen llamando incorrectamente alegrías de Córdoba, habría que referirse en realidad a cantiñas cordobesas."

Mezzo - Thats interesting. I'd actually like to read Normans input on this subject. Again I would point out that the solea de cordoba is a local variation of an pre existing palo rather than a separate form. The recordings on Normans site are from the 60s and (as he explains himself) are based on the earlier solea by Ramon el Ollero who was from triana, seville.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2013 21:14:46

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

I'd actually like to read Normans input on this subject.

On cantiñas/alegrías de Córdoba? Never cared for 'em, personally. I think the name doesn't really matter. You'd want to bear in mind local preference when talking to locals, but taking it beyond that is just fussiness, IMO.

On the broader subject, fandangos de Lucena (in the group you've called verdiales) and serrana are associated with Córdoba.

In regard to Córdoba's relatively low flamenco profile, it might be interesting to have a look at records on gypsy populations and migration. Also, I seem to recall reading that Córdoba's ancient history had more to do with literature than music (still looking for the source for that). But I think a more obvious reason has to do with its location. The other places you've mentioned are on, near or connected to the coast, and Córdoba is far inland.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 12:40:55

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

a more obvious reason has to do with its location. The other places you've mentioned are on, near or connected to the coast

Not quite sure how or why the 'coast connection' has influenced the local traditional music.?

What am I missing here, Norman?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 13:15:45

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

Alegrìas or Cantiñas de Còrdoba are sometimes attributed to the family Onofre de Còrdoba. In Càdiz, they are thought to be a variation of mirabràs.

I think it is a beautiful cantiñas when sung well, probably because of its minor tones.

But then I like the Alegrìas de Pinini too (which also are really cantiñas).

Too much categorization, not enough appreciation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 15:41:12

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

Well as far as solea is concerned, I found these two examples (which I'm going to try to upload in the Audio&Video section):

Ranchal, Antonio / Guitarra Pepe Martinez – Me Vieron Hablar Contigo
Luis De Córdoba - De las ermitas

For a map of the impact of various regions on flamenco click here

You can see that apart from Soleares, Cantiñas and Serranas the Fandangos play an important role. asfaik, you have the Fandangos de Cabra, de Lucena (as Norman mentioned above), and de Puente Genil (aka "del zángano")

You might also want to check out this site

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 16:06:34

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

You can find the two audio examples here:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=223985&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 16:13:53

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to britguy)

quote:

What am I missing here, Norman?

I don't know, britguy; I just wanted to state the observation. If I had to take a guess, I'd say that it might be because of industry being drawn to or originating on the coast, which would drive local economies which, in turn, would provide employment and/or desirable living conditions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2013 16:39:12

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to NormanKliman)

Hey Norman. I forgot about Serrana which is definately associated with cordoba.
Im not sure I would group fandangos de lucena with verdiales which is typical from Malaga. There are only 4 or 5 villages near Malaga wher you can still see verdiales like Comares and Benagalbon. This is what I think of as Verdiales.

ED. That flamenco map is great. Maybe it is just Geography then. Cordoba is the most northerly tip of the region where flamenco developed. It cant just be a coastal thing. Seville and Granada are also inland but you have a strong gypsy connection with Triana and the Albaicin/Sacromonte which you dont have in Cordoba. The coast has only generated work from building and tourism in the last 60 years. Before the 50s people would have looked for work in the cities.

If anyone has any info on gypsy populations in cordoba it might be helpful.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 9:18:11

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

If anyone has any info on gypsy populations in cordoba it might be helpful.

It appears that in 1749 ("Gipsy Roundup") 100 Gitanos were deported from Cordoba (source:Antonio Gomez Alfaro, Escritos sobre Gitanos, no year , prob. 2008-2010)
The latest census doesn't differentiate between Gitanos and Payos, so that's no help.
So you'd probably have to contact one of the Gitano-organizations.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 16:19:26

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

Seville and Granada are also inland but you have a strong gypsy connection with Triana and the Albaicin/Sacromonte which you dont have in Cordoba. The coast has only generated work from building and tourism in the last 60 years.

Seville isn't on the coast, but of course the navigability of the Guadalquivir made it a major seaport for centuries.

Throughout much of the sixteenth century Seville had a monopoly on trade with the Americas, leading to an immense economic boom.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 22:25:44

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Im not sure I would group fandangos de lucena with verdiales which is typical from Malaga.

They're all cantes abandolaos. I posted that video on this forum in 2009. It's more folkloric than flamenco.

quote:

The coast has only generated work from building and tourism in the last 60 years.

Are you really saying that access to the coast had no bearing on the development of industry prior to the 1960s?

quote:

Before the 50s people would have looked for work in the cities.

Yes, and many of Spain's historically important cities are on or near the coast. It's no accident that the regions making the most noise insofar as gaining independence are on the coast.

The contribution of eastern Andalusia to flamenco seems to be much more recent and sparse than that of western Andalusia.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 8:20:53

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

Are you really saying that access to the coast had no bearing on the development of industry prior to the 1960s?

No, Im not saying that. I mean of course Malaga, Cadiz and Almeria have always been busy ports. I was pointing out that sleepy fishing villages like Marbella and torremolinos etc. that were surrounded by nothing more than fields of sugar cane turned into large cities since the 60s and especially the 70s and that created a huge amount of work on the coast. Before the 60s many of the coastal towns relied on fishing and agriculture and didnt even have proper roads. Eastern Andalucia is much drier and (was) more sparcely populated so it makes sense that the west would have more activity.

Some of these points actually reinforce my first question. What factor has meant that Cordoba hasnt been involved in the flamenco story? Cordoba was a very rich city historically, it was the capital of Roman spain, it was the capital of islamic Al-Andalus, it had at one time the largest population of people of any city in the world. As Norman pointed out it was a centre of learning, universities, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, libraries, literature, music. Its also on the Guadalquivir river and traded minerals from local mines and its easy to get from Seville to Cordoba by boat. The river was used to operate mills and grind flour. So industry, transport and population isnt a factor. The other cities have grown more recently. So why was flamenco flourishing in Cadiz, Jerez, Seville and Granada with not much happening in Cordoba?? It still makes me think that its the lack of a Gypsy barrio at the time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 8:51:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

Some things are just "names" don't take so strongly as regional. Such as "granaina"...from granada...really? Or malagueñas....only from malaga? The forms come from singers. Toque from those that accompany singers. Rondeña comes from R. Montoya NOT from Ronda...nor is it derived from the sung version. In terms of song forms you have Solea/cantiñas/tientos, siguiriyas/tonas/, fandangos/levante....that's it. The rest are derived from those either rhythmically or structurally. The odd ball songs have limited letras and often only make use of or borrow the compas of one of those forms. Alegria or cantiñas de cordoba, or pinini or caracoles etc are more like specific songs than song forms. Same with serrana and caña/polo. There was a buleria I recall hearing called "Puentecita" that I THOUGHT was associated with Cordoba.

I think the general issue is not forms but why is Cordoba a GUITAR town, and few important singers come from there. Same deal with Moron. I think singers had more inspiration with in the golden triangle of sevilla cadiz jerez...and the levante region had the mineros, the mountains had the bandidos etc etc. Certain towns just didn't have the inspiration for singing so much that's all. Might not even be a proper reason.

As far as Alegria de Cordoba not being an important cante, I have always heard it refered to as a challenge to sing. Here is the more impressive example I know of at 9:45:

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 13:53:51

mark indigo

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

it was the capital of islamic Al-Andalus, it had at one time the largest population of people of any city in the world

but wasn't that comparatively early on in the islamic history? later the Medina Azahara palace outside the city was trashed and other places became more important, and long before the reconquest.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 22:53:30

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

but wasn't that comparatively early on in the islamic history?

Yes but Cordoba was still an important city alongside seville, cadiz etc. while many large coastal towns were still relatively small villages.

Ricardo - Maybe certain towns didnt have a tradition of singing so much, but wouldnt that also be due to the lack of Gypsy population? If we think of the cafe cantante period when Seville and Granada had many venues for live flamenco, maybe its just that Cordoba didnt....or maybe Cordoba musicians would go to Seville to work. This is just speculation but it is odd because today, as you point out, Cordoba really has some great guitar players and a flamenco conservatory.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2013 16:35:40

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

They're all cantes abandolaos. I posted that video on this forum in 2009. It's more folkloric than flamenco.

(Why) Are the pandas considered more folkloric than sevillanas?

I ask coz I'd have categorized these 2 style as folklore without distinction. Since a vast amount of people consider sevillanas as a flamenco form, but they would have (I assume) difficulty to include Pandas in flamenco repertoire.

So I wonder why Pandas are considered as hardcore folklore and Sevillanas are more borderline with flamenco. Maybe coz of the sevillanas' baile, or pandas are too much popular (I mean the way this music is perform is too far from cannonical flamenco standard?)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2013 17:35:13

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

(Why) Are the pandas considered more folkloric than sevillanas?

Panda is the group; what they sing are verdiales. Few, if any, flamenco artists have performed these kinds of verdiales, so they're considered less flamenco. I haven't studied the singing of these pandas, but my impression is that their verdiales are less developed than their flamenco cousins. Anyway, the violins, bandurrias, percussion instruments, costumes, etc. are an intrinsic part of the whole. My guess is that, at most, some singers from the region have included a panda in a show or a recording.

These two pages have some useful information on Córdoba:

http://cordobapedia.wikanda.es/wiki/Siglo_XVIII
http://cordobapedia.wikanda.es/wiki/Siglo_XIX

The first mentions socioeconomic decline in Córdoba in the 18th century, qualifying the period as a century of loss. This contrasts with the steady rise of the wine industry in the Cadiz Bay area which really took off in the mid-19th century after a railway had connected Jerez and Los Puertos in 1856. Here are population data on both cities, with a few indications in parentheses:

Jerez
1787: 44.382
1804: 35.475 (war)
1826: 31.064 (cholera)
1841: 33.090
1846: 33.552
1848: 34.166
1857: 51.339 (train)
1860: 52.158

Córdoba
1781: 41.433
1787: 34.684
1797: 20.000
1800: 40.000
1834: 40.296
1842: 41.976
1857: 42.909
1900: 58.275

According to Ricardo Molina (Córdoba native and coauthor of that book with Mairena), gypsies in Córdoba associated more with those in La Mancha and Jaén than with those in Seville.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2013 8:15:14

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

Anyway, the violins, bandurrias, percussion instruments, costumes, etc. are an intrinsic part of the whole.

My feeling from all the vids in YT is that these popular parties look like very enjoyable. If I had the opportunity to sit in one of them, I would have a great time and probably have ended up drunk

The MC with the wooden stick intrigues me btw...

Anyway thks for the explanation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2013 13:11:49

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

The MC with the wooden stick intrigues me btw..

He waves his stick above the next person to sing. The verdialles festivals are great fun. I went to summer festival in Benagalbon and it goes on all night. The groups play in the streets, there is food and drink prepared by the neighbours and the dancing and noise comes to full head at about 4.00 in the morning with the different groups playing in the town square....and yes you do end up drunk!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2013 14:38:08

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to Pimientito)

A safe answer to questions like this is usually “fandangos”. In the Subbética region of Cordoba province fandangos are alive and well with a lot of local variations. I stayed in FuenteTójar for a couple of weeks during their annual Fiesta. Men wore skirts and fancy floral hats and the women riding habits, but it was the men who danced the fandangos accompanied by guitar and violins. The fiesta goes on into the early hours and loud fireworks are set off at 10 am the following day to make sure everyone is awake for the next event in the programme. Lucena is also in this province and reputedly has three different locally developed fandangos. Cabra is the birthplace of Cayetano Muriel (el Niño de Cabra). Fosforito is from Puente Genil which has a unique fandango – the zángano.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2013 15:57:56

Morante

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Flamenco from Cordoba (in reply to mezzo)

Go to the Feria de Málaga: pandas all day, around Calle Larios, baile por malagueñas in the plaza, corridas de toros early evening, then free buses to the Real de la Feria where you can eat and drink and listen to free concerts all night.

Then you start again: by the end of the week you are a physical wreck