Principles Update

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Principles Update

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

Principles Update

Hi gang, as many of you all know, I bought Jamey Andreas' the Principles book awhile back, and shortly became very "into" it. I have now been using his book for a couple weeks, I guess, and wanted to let you all in on how I have progressed.

First, the book as it is is not completely suitable for flamencos. In some sections, he is very specific about posture and technique, and I don't agree with some of it. For example, to move his right hand, he pivots his elbow, sweeping the hand up and down. I move my whole arm! I'm sure his way does work, but I had injury problems playing with a bent wrist and after seeing how Paco and Vicente play, I tried to emulate them a bit more. Also, I don't like playing in the classical position because it looks dorky, I prefer the crossed leg or just an elevated right leg--the casual style.

That being said, everything else seems to be very good. The major insight the book shares is that to play really well, you need to gain a deep understanding of your technique. Now, Jamey thinks this should be conscious understanding, myself, I think that you could play very well with an unconscious understanding as well. I do think that the conscious route is much faster and dependable, although requiring more focus. Focus is the key to Jamey's methods. You must make your fingers do what you want them to do (knowing what you want them to do is knoweldge that must be gained from teachers, videos, books, or experimentation, and in my opinion is at least half the battle.) The idea is that you can make your fingers do anything you want to, with enough focus and "no-tempo" practice.

What is "no-tempo" practice? It's doing a certain movement over and over again, as slow as necessary in order to do it extremely right. If you do that, you will be able to effortlessly speed up the movement as fast as you need.

This is the part of the book I have not really tested. I am revamping my right hand technique according to the "no-tempo" philosophy, meditating on my movements and trying to fashion the best way to do things. This is quite different than my old mind-set, where I saw someone with a good technique and wished my hands had such efficient movements. Now I make my hands do what I want them to. I have not yet seen results in speeding hte movements up, but I understand this is a learning process and could take awhile.

The changes I have made to my left hand have been much more noticeable. I hold my thumb differently now, have a more parallel attitude to the fingerboard, and a neater fingering. In only two weeks, I have seen significant results here.

No, I'm not getting any kickbacks from this guy! I'll keep you all posted on my progress.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2003 19:37:56

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Michael,

I too have his book. The problem I have with no-tempo is I am impatient. I play a passage ultra slow like he says two or three times and say that's enough of that stuff, and I'm back to normal speed!

I do see value in what he says. As for the conscious, unconscious issue, that opens up a whole new can of worms. A massive amount of literature has been written on how the brain learns. Here is something that was shard to me about twenty-five years ago that really says it all.

The four levels of learnig.

1) The unconscious-incompetant. This is the person that does not know what he does not know.

2) The conscious-incompetant. This is the person that knows what he does not know.

3) The conscious-competant. He thinks about what he knows.

4) The unconscious-competant. He does not need to think about what he knows.

We all want to get to the forth level. In many areas of our life, we are. How many times have you driven for miles in your car, only to become aware you have traveled miles without realizing it. You were driving competently in an unconscious state of mind.

Very few of us will reach that level with the guitar, because for most of us, it takes massive repetition in the conscious state. This I believe is the foundation to what Jamey is trying to accomplish, by total concentration and discipline. As they say "it's not practice that make perfect, its perfect practice, that makes perfect".

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2003 1:17:40

Paul Bruhns

Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

My Take On Slow Practice:

I have tried the slow deliberate _ GET IT PERFECT SLOW_ FIRST_ kind of thing, and I am disappointed in it. I think it works for some techniques, but not that many FLAMENCO techniques. I struggled with rasgueado techniques by trying to practice them slowly, and it never worked. I think that rasgueados need to be even and punchy, but you will never get a good rasgueado sound unless you CONSTANTLY practice it at "speed"

I think the same can be said of arpeggios "Believe it or Not". Nothing is harder for me than the decending arpeggio. Now, if you try to play Soleares without the benefit of a good decending arpeggio, what do you have? NOTHING! that's what! The whole Aire of Soleares is embedded in arpeggios that roll evenly and quickly between the beats in the compas. I am strongly opinionated about this by the way!!!! So, how do you build speed in your arpeggio? Not by practicing it slowly. You will likely find out as I did, that no matter how perfect you get your arpeggio down at a slow tempo, it never translated to speed later on. Practice these things at SPEED, and strive to improve your attack, but get the fingers moving FAST! That needs to be job "1"

I am sure there are some techiques you can practice slowly, such as picado, so you get used to alternating your i-m fingers as you traverse strings, etc. But still, the rasgueado and arpeggio are about speed and feeling. CONCLUSION: practice these at some measure of speed and work on the attack to improve your overall performance.

I'd love to hear your views on this.

Regards,
Paul

PS: I am not a teacher, but after perhaps 150 professional flamenco guitar lessons over the past 3 1/2 years, I have definitely drawn some personal conclusions. :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2003 15:05:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Paul,
I'm can't really answer your views with my own, because I haven't formed them yet. Descending arps are a bit tricky... my solution has always been to preplant, that is, put all the fingers down first, then play them. You get a crisp sound like this, but I have been a bit unsatisfied with it. It seems kind of like cheating. So I'll have to let you know how the arp thing goes. It seems to be working okay, though. My fingers already move fast, they just aren't coordinated. So this might work for that. As far as the rasgueo go, I'm not sure either! I already am pretty happy with my rases, but to tell you the truth I did a bit of "slow-tempo" practice when learning them. a down relax m down relax i down relax i up relax, all marcado. Of course, I quickly got bored of that and they started to just come out better in my playing in time.

I think one thing that might be salient is the question: when you slow it down to "no-tempo", are you playing the same stroke? I found that when I slowed things down too much, I started to miss things, you know, like muscle groups. For example, I would slow down an i picado, slow, slow, slow, and eventually it stopped working, catching or whatever. Eventually I realized it was because I had neglected a part of the motion. Maybe I was concentrating on the pulling action too much, although when I play at speed there is a combination of pulling and pushing. This, I believe, is the process to really know your technique, consciously. Perhaps it takes time, lots of acute observation and even experimentation, merely to know what you are doing! And then when you know, you practice each of these elements very slowly and accurately. This is how I view it now and seems to be Jamey Andreas' position. Like I said, I'm going to stick with it and let you guys all know how it works.

One thing I'm pretty sure about, and that is that Jamey's method requires great concentration and focus. And this to me, is the number one factor in obtaining skill, much higher on the list than mere years, long fingers, gypsy parents, etc. I believe the difference in good players and bad players is largely due to the ability to concentrate (which can and should be cultivated!).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2003 15:20:26

Paul Bruhns

Posts: 77
Joined: Jul. 14 2003

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Michael:

You make an excellent point:

quote:

I think one thing that might be salient is the question: when you slow it down to "no-tempo", are you playing the same stroke? I found that when I slowed things down too much, I started to miss things,

I think that is more of what I was trying to point out. If you slow down to "no tempo" on certain techniques, you don't play them the same when you speed up. I would say that a continuous rasgueado (like that Marote') needs to be done in a very relaxed manner if you are going to attain the necessary speed, even though you still need to practice getting it to sound punchy and even. For some reason, when I've tried doing this slowly to get eveness and punch, my fingers were doing different things, and those things didn't work when I tried to speed it up... does that make sense?

I'll try pre-planting my fingers on the decending arpeggio, and I don't think that is cheating at all... it's whatever works to achieve the sound, right?

Regards,
Paul

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2003 17:31:25

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Paul, my point is that the reason slowing it down might be difficult is incomplete knowledge of the technique. For example, when slowing my picado, it starts to catch and be weird at a certain point. With enough study, I realized that it was because when I slowed it down, I stopped pushing--I only pulled. That is, when I began to exert conscious control over the technique, it broke down. Well, now I know, I know that I must do both and that I must practice both sensations. Perhaps it isn't necessary, per se, to play rasgeuo slowly to practice it. Perhaps with enough study, one would find that when he slows it down, he misses part of it, and once it is identified it can be controlled. The only reason to undertake such a laborious study is if you believe that conscious control is a beneficial thing. I do... and that is what I am working on. But for me, at least, much of this discussion is speculative. Only time will prove to me whether this can be done or if it is worth studying.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 14 2003 22:22:28

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

This may not make any sense to others but it is how I learned. First I learned technique inside out. Then I learned how to play one piece incorporating those techniques. New techniques were added before learning a new piece. This was totally dependent upon the technique being introduced. I was taught to advance step by step.

My introduction to piano taught me a great deal about learning how to play different musical instruments. I have taught and play piano, guitar, flute, balalaika, mandolin, recorder, and a number of other instruments. There are some basics to learn and you should learn them as a progression. Once learned they will be applied to everything you play with a particular instrument.

I play basic techniques for about five minutes a day and no more. I use these as a warm up exercise so I do not injure my hands.

Playing by ear or playing by notation are very different. If you play by ear you should know how to play basic techniques but you may not know how to play they correctly. If you are talking about flamenco then you will see the two schools of playing by ear or notation. Which is better? How about the guitarist who teaches himself everything (Sabicas)? How did he learn?

There are pieces of music that are almost impossible to play slowly. The reasons are many and the technique required is just one of the questions. Some techniques are not meant to be played slowly. If you get into physiology you meet the words fast twitch and slow twitch muscles. This could well apply to playing a musical instrument. My brother has a Masters Degree in this subject and we often discuss it.

The brain teaches the hand and the hand then teaches the brain. This is done through the ability to hear and or see. Once you burn into your brain what is required you no longer think – you do! This one sentence is the major message I wish to convey.

In classical music and other types of music you emulate what someone else has defined. In flamenco you can break those boundaries and go off on your own direction. First understand the rules. If you do not know or understand or are unable to play basic techniques you cannot play any instrument. First learn the basics. Learn them inside out.

It really does not take long to learn the basics. Too many teachers teach incorrectly and can easily destroy students. Too many students try to take the easy path. I liken teachers of music and martial arts in a similar category. The chances are you will be taught by an incompetent who says, “Come back each week, bring money, and I will make you a success”!

Of all those who live and have lived in Spain and play guitar, how many are world-renowned? Of those outside Spain, who fits into that category? Be sure you have realistic goals and expectations.

Playing technique for hours a day will not make you a better player. After you learn to walk you can become a ballroom dancer but not before. Practicing walking for hours will not improve your ability to dance. By the way I was a ballroom dancer for Arthur Murray Studios when I was in my early 20’s, and dance on exhibition for that organization. Walking did little if anything to improve my abilities to dance. I hope you understand my point.

The words of two of my teachers come to mine as to what is really important, “Repertoire, Repertoire, Repertoire,” and “If you make a mistake, keep playing”! We are all only human. Do you best in what ever endeavor you undertake. You can do no more.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2003 1:12:43

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Paul Bruhns)

quote:

think that is more of what I was trying to point out. If you slow down to "no tempo" on certain techniques, you don't play them the same when you speed up. I would say that a continuous rasgueado (like that Marote') needs to be done in a very relaxed manner if you are going to attain the necessary speed, even though you still need to practice getting it to sound punchy and even. For some reason, when I've tried doing this slowly to get eveness and punch, my fingers were doing different things, and those things didn't work when I tried to speed it up... does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, Paul. You've hit a very important nail on the head here. The age old practice routine of slowing everything right down is all well and good, and is excellent for certain things, but its not a cure all as some people maintain.

As you say, there are important differences with certain motions when you play them fast and slow. Here's a good example - running is not the same as fast walking. You do not simply walk faster and faster until it becomes running!

For a more relevant example of this, people can check out Eddie Lastras excellent demo 6 stroke continuous ras video that he posted ages ago on FT. He starts out slowly, and accelerates, and then Bam! there is a definite point where his hand/fingers change from 6 individual movements into one complete rotary motion.

Bottom line , if you want to play something fast, you have to practice it fast, otherwise you are never practicing what you need to play. The trouble is we can seldom maintain fast things for long periods of time, so the solution is to do it in short bursts, and over time connect these short bursts into longer bursts.

quote:

I'll try pre-planting my fingers on the decending arpeggio, and I don't think that is cheating at all... it's whatever works to achieve the sound, right?

Absolutely. I would though, suggest pre-planting the fingers one at a time in a descending arpeggio and not all at the same time as Michael suggests. No disrespect to Miichael - I just think its harder doing it that way!

In other words, for example in a AMIP arpeggio, place A on the string, pluck and as you are plucking M moves straight to the next string at the same time. Then pluck M, moving I onto the next string at the same time and so on.

This is conventional 'planting wisdom'.

Cheers

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2003 12:48:01

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Jon's right about the arps--but remember I was complaining about my method and in the midst of changing it! Planting is good, but not the way I've been doing it. In fact, Scott Tennant says that all players who have control over their sound plant to some degree, if unconsciously.

But I wanted to talk to Tom! You said hours of practicing technique will not make you better. In this case I am going about things the wrong way. But you also said that you, yourself, learned technique inside out first... Well, what gives, are you saying that it doesn't take much work to learn technique? I already know "basic techniques," but I have been operating under the assumption that perfecting these things--scales, arpeggios, rasgueos, slurs, etc., will prepare me to play pieces and falsetas. I guess I was waiting to get them to a degree of power and speed, to then progress to learning repertoire, etc. I wish you would be more specific, I know I'm asking for a free lesson but I'm not able to come out to SF to see you very often!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 15 2003 15:55:55

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Principles Update (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Michael;

I spent about 9 weeks on basic techniques, which my first teacher had me do before I played any music. The techniques were learned and then applied to each piece I played. As additional techniques were learned more suitable material was introduced.

The concept was to first get both left and right hands accustomed to working together. At this point I was using techniques for five minute warm ups and playing pieces I had learned for about one hour and another hour on new pieces.

Why not try a piece of music that incorporates several techniques you want to work on. Break down the falseta or chording compas, etc. into a section that you wish to learn. Concentrate on that and play it for say 10 to 20 times. Within 3 – 5 days you should see improvement in learning the piece as well as get good exercise for your required techniques.

Playing a piece with several techniques is good to accustom your hands to what flamenco guitar technique requires. Play slowly and clearly if at all possible. Think of what you are doing, listen and watch the left hand. Try to think of what the right hand must do but spend less time watching it. As soon as you can do not look at your hands. Try to focus on the music. It is not easy at first but it really helps when you are distracted by something, to have learned this way.

This may or may not make any sense to anyone. It might really take a one on one approach. One thing for sure you have to have someone watch your left and right hand and that someone must know what to look for. There is no reason to do something that will injure your hands or slow down your technique.

What is good for one person may not be good for another. You have to find out for yourself what is best for you!