Expressing emotions

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Expressing emotions

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Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

Expressing emotions

I wonder if anyone out there can explain how to express different forms of emotion through Flamenco. From what I've tried, the only real "feel" that I can express, and in fact tie with the music, is a sort of seething anger that lurks under the surface of the music. I have never been able to play good Flamenco without first keeping in mind something that I am truly angry or upset about. In fact, when I am in my more relaxed or lighter moods I find it virtually impossible to play without sounding mechanical. I am getting quite tired of it and the last straw came when someone commented that I played like I hated everyone present, even though it was fine in terms of technique.

How do people in a relaxed or happy mood psyche themselves up to the point where the music reflects it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 16:33:50

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

Ryan,
meditate. Go to parties. Watch good dancers or singers and learn from them. Dig deep inside of yourself..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 17:51:33

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

Relax, play beautiful, try a peteneras.

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 17:52:45

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

Ryan,
I strongly doubt if any good musician actually feels emotions like anger or sadness when playing.
That's for the listener to feel.
Music is all about control.
Controlling the sound is the buzz for a musician.
That's what he/she lives for.
A true musician has gone past all that emotional stuff when performing IMO and feels the music in a different and I would say higher and purer way than a "general" audience does.
Maybe the audience is being wowed by the beautiful and passionate tremolo section, but really the artist is more concerned that he's gonna get that difficult change at the 12th fret.

My two cents anyway...

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 19:52:40

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron,

Sorry, I cannot agree with you, in my opinion, you really must not" worry about the difficult chainge at the 12 fret"
It is the trick, as far as I am thinking, to play in the moment.

Play the notes consious when the time arives at the moment to play the note.
Play the note and drink it, it feel it, when the time is there for it. And worry about a difficulty when the time is there to play the difficulty and feel that one too.

This is my goal, even try to play that way while practicing.
Perhaps different people have different aproaching of things....

But remember, the result is what counts.

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 20:19:42

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to gerundino63)

Yeah Peter, but when you are doing your sculptures etc can you really say that you are emotionally angry or sad...or would you say that your mind is more "focussed" and in a different world entirely from those day-to-day feelings?
And then you return to those basic feelings after the session, but not during.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 20:50:24

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

And then you return to those basic feelings after the session, but not during.

You have a point - when I create something new (like painting my house), I marvel at it afterwards, going back and switching the light on at strange times. Then I feel happy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 20:52:26

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron,

I feel as you say focussed, not angry or happy or sad.

And also in a different world than the normal one, but very "in time" and you are right, the same with sculpturing, i forget time and everything else, doing and thinking only what i do i tried to explain that in the previous post the same with music.

Haha Simon,
I can see you in your bathrobe on your bare feet in an empty room switching the light on in the middle of the night, bif smile on your face

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 21:06:22

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

Ryan I like your approach. Never thought about it that way. Always just copied the things I heard or just did the things the composer had prescribed (decresc., ritenuto etc.)

Thought of some subjects yet: God, my wife and children. And the guy that still owes me 200E

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 21:57:03

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

I can see you in your bathrobe on your bare feet in an empty room switching the light on in the middle of the night, bif smile on your face

You got me. You don't sneak down to a sculpture in progress in the night? I used to go out to my garage to look at my Mustang when I added some new shiny thing. Can't wait to ship it out here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 22:44:01

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Escribano)

Hahaha, now you got me too!

That would be the ultimate thing, driving with the Mustang through the rough country of Spain...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2005 22:52:43

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

When you get angry your muscles become stiff and you dont perform as well, i gues is why the biggest thing in martial arts is to not fight angry as you reflexes are weak and you head is not clear.

Also i know that if you performing or playing in front of someone and just a second before you think in your head oh no i am gonna mess the next part up , chances are you do.

Your mental preparation is very important, theres never 100 % for everything but i think some things that help :

- before playing a piece or anything in front of pple make sure u know it backwoods and when at home you can do it your eyes closed and you 100 % confident with it, so that when you do it in front of pple you might be able to do it at about 90 % or 80 % when nerves get a hold of you.

- make a concious effort to keep yourself in the moment, dont let your head race ahed, when we are nervous and playin in front of pple we tend not to be in the moment, is like a blur, we there but not really there, so before starting the piece take a second, touch the chair, or the guitar and aknolodge where you are.

At the same time if getting angry works for you and you perform well under it well then do whatever works for you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2005 0:18:09

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

I have never been able to play good Flamenco without first keeping in mind something that I am truly angry or upset about.

Well, I guess I have a problem hearing or feeling anger in any flamenco palo I know or have heard. I do visualize before I play, which allows me to relax and get into the mood of the palo I am playing. It takes only a few seconds for me to do this. It is like changing gears while driving a car.

I have played a great deal of accompaniment and perhaps that is an advantage when you visualize. Imagine the singer or dancer expressing the music. Flamenco runs a wide range of emotions from joy to sorrow, and again I cannot think of anger. Perhaps you can tell me what palos you feel that are angry?

It is important to not just play the notes. You have to feel the music and express it as was intended. Every note is important and you must have total control without thinking of what note is next. Learn how to just play the music. Watch and listen.

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2005 1:37:09

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

quote:

Perhaps you can tell me what palos you feel that are angry?

You're both right in my humble opinion.

Try the first tangos in Saura's Flamenco - anger, mixed with pride, is central to those letras but not to any specific palo.

It is one of the fundamentals for me; as are loneliness, friendship, love and death.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2005 20:12:09

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

I must confess I feel no small degree of terror at the thought that the audience interprets the piece rather than myself. If meaning is determined by the audience and not the musician, then what can we say of the fact that <Insert Pop Icon's Name> is probably more popular than Haydn or Paco de Lucia these days? If interpretation is the work of the audience, doesn't that turn the musician into a sort of technician who merely creates the notes? Surely the musician still plays a lead role in making meaning?

Also, I shudder at the thought of a thousandfold audience making a thousandfold interpretations of a single piece, a sort of potentially infinite multiplication that means the piece means everything (and that is the same as saying it means nothing). It would essentially mean that I cannot communicate anything with certainty through music and my sound becomes ultimately mute, nothing more than a mirror of the audience in front of me. Since they develop the meaning, they hear and experience nothing they have not got from within themselves. (By Nietzche's standards I would then become a writer

)

That aside, I notice the symptoms of building anger when I play Bulerias. It's not so much a cathartic release (which is probably healthy) but a sort of slow growing hate / depression that blossoms outward from anger. Usually I merely sound angry, Bulerias actually *makes* me angry. With some more recent contemplation, I now attribute all this now to the fact that I used to play music in order to relieve some form of distress. While it helped before, I have now somehow managed to "infect" the music by actually aligning it with moments when I feel particularly bad.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2005 17:45:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

I notice the symptoms of building anger when I play Bulerias. It's not so much a cathartic release (which is probably healthy) but a sort of slow growing hate / depression that blossoms outward from anger. Usually I merely sound angry, Bulerias actually *makes* me angry. With some more recent contemplation, I now attribute all this now to the fact that I used to play music in order to relieve some form of distress. While it helped before, I have now somehow managed to "infect" the music by actually aligning it with moments when I feel particularly bad.

Damn Ryan002 i am speachless, how do you feel when you play Alegria ?
From what i have read I dont think the answer is anything to do with the palo but more with the source of the problem your happines atm, i dont wanna predict what is bringing you so down but whatever it is i hope you find it and fix.
Spending a long time unhappy on the inside can cause serious health problems mate, not worth it.

My apologie if i missunderstood your point.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2005 19:46:56

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

blues players say you cant play the blues clean you have to live them and play with the spontaneity of the spirit. (sounds like duende) transpires technical artistry I believe.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2005 20:28:09

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

You know a number of years ago, a white researcher went down to the Southern USA to hear the Blues played in it's natural locations...the dives and the poverty townships.
He said to them "Why do you play such dismal music when your conditions are so bad?...why don't you play "happy" music to cheer you up?"
The old black guy turned to him and said "Mister, we play the Blues because it gets rid of our problems...and that's what makes us feel happy".
That's why I think Flamenco and Blues has such a close affinity IMO....

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2005 20:35:31

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Florian)

quote:

how do you feel when you play Alegria ?

I'd like to see a really angry Sevillanas myself, complete with Sombreros and Castanets (and a guy rippin' his red pirate shirt to shreds with the passion and anger of the whole thing)

Oh yeah...and at the end the guitarist smashes his guitar and the percussionist kicks over the cajon a la Townshend and Moon.

Now that really would be interesting "nouveux" Flamenco IMO...

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2005 20:47:30

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

quote:

I cannot communicate anything with certainty through music and my sound becomes ultimately mute

Do you mean mute or moot? 'Cos some people get them mixed up. Then again, they both work in your context.

How on Earth does playing Buleria make you angry? After all, Nietzsche also said

quote:

Without music, life would be a mistake

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2005 22:31:48

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Spending a long time unhappy on the inside can cause serious health problems mate, not worth it.

Amen! Better to be positive and enjoy life. It is up to the individual to determine his/her attitude. Sometimes a person lets negativity guide them. This can lead to serious problems.

I have had more than my share of problems but I try to be positive. Sometimes it works!

I like to tell people, “Keep a smile on your face so everyone will think you are crazy”!

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2005 19:23:50

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to rickm)

quote:

blues players say you cant play the blues clean you have to live them

I play piano, guitar and a few other instruments. A friend of mine suggested I not play anything sad at a very difficult time of my life. Being a stubborn person (with a name like Thomas and born under the sign of Taurus, what can you expect?

), I found great refuge from and release of all negative feelings by playing pieces such as Schubert’s Serenade and St Louis Blues on the piano.

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2005 19:33:58

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

I have found that with greater emphasis on the minor chords and the 7th chords over the major chords, even Sevillanas or Alegrias begins to sound "stretched" and anxious. Experimenting with a few friends I have found a great way to express mounting tension and "stress" effects, like a sort of gnawing worry or dulled panic.

I wonder if anyone else out there has tried this and has some sort of technique for mantaining this "stressed" sound all throughout, since I almost always collapse into a kind of tired sounding resolution. What I want to do is use a chord progression that is anxious and worried and ends suddenly, as fervently as it began with no "closure" to the sound. Of course, I could just cut off halfway but that's just not very "musical" is it?

(Still can't get a feel for happy sounds

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 24 2005 7:48:32

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

I used to like moody, sad, wistful things, which is fairly negative, like anger/hate. Eventually I realized that there is enough sadness in the world without wallowing in it. And there is certainly enough hate in the world without embracing it. "You are what you eat." If you like to watch violent movies, wallow in perversion, live an inner life of hate, then that is all there will ever be for you. On the other hand, if you expose yourself to happy people, successful people, and positive thoughts and music then you may be able to cleanse yourself and actually live a tolerable existence.

I don't watch the news and rarely watch horror movies for this reason. I also would rather listen to happy music or watch comedy than something that expresses a negative emotion. I repeat that there is enough negativity in the world, as soon as you step out of your private space, enough to go around. Why would you want to bring that **** into your own mind?

Try happiness...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 15:58:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

Not sure why you are complaing Ryan. Better to get your frustrations out on the instrument rather than on the highway or at home with the wife and kids you know? Some people have nothing to say on the instrument, so at least anger is somehting. And when others come and say "hey why do you play angry?" just say "because people like you piss me off" or something. Better yet, hand them your guitar next time and ask them to express somthing with it. Art allows you to express what you feel, don't try to force it.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 17:56:06

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

Ryan, maybe you should try playing more Rumbas- I find many of them a bit less aggressive than some other styles. For example, take a listen to this one by Vicente Cortes:

http://www.actmusic.com/sound/9413_12.mp3

It would be quite difficult to play this sort of thing and not feel peaceful!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 25 2005 19:33:15

Ryan002

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: Expressing emotions (in reply to Ryan002)

Ricardo,
I only complain about not being able to express anything else because in a way it hinders my ability to communicate to a wider audience. It's like not being able to say anything below a shout y'know what I mean? Angry is my feel and ultimately that's what I am in tune with but...it's not helpful to be stuck with it and not be able to do anything else.

I guess I play for the audience more than for myself...whether that's right or wrong.

And thanks Jbashorun. I am not used to Rumbas but I guess I am less of a fuming maniac when I play Rumbas, though I find it a little depressing. Any versatility in feel is good for me right now though.

And Miguel, I am never surrendering my collection of 233+ Horror DVDs