Laying out scale

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Laying out scale

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

Laying out scale

I am ready to lay out scale, center of soundhole etc... (for the first time!)

Found a scale calculator on Stewart Mac that seems to do the trick. I realized that the plans I got from LMI get stretched out when printed and do not measure correctly - up to 2mm out over the length of the drawing. So I stopped and looked for a calculator.
Do you all add about 2mm to the calculated scale to compensate for fingering frets and action?

I was ready to draw yesterday then measured my drawing and found the problem and stopped right away!

Help! - I hate having to stop!

Scale calculator: http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 14:08:02

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

I add 2mm to the scale length for compensation.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 14:57:44

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to TANúñez)

I just spent about 2 hours trying to figure out why Bill Lewis Barbero soundhole is 160mm from the 12 fret. I calculated it time after time until something made me count the number of frets on the plan - only to find 20!!!

I know I am a beginner but my math it not that bad!

Jorge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 18:07:48

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

If your going to build a Barbero, I would build off the Brune plans. This one is an accurate plan. The Lewis plans have been modified with some of his ideas if I am not mistaken. Not saying it's a bad plan. It's just not a straight up Barbero.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 18:40:59

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to TANúñez)

Hey thanks for the advice! I saw the alternate bracing patterns etc too so i may switch to the Santos plan as I still have only the plantilla drawn on my top so far.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 19:01:28

mottallica

Posts: 177
Joined: Mar. 25 2012
From: Israel

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

where did you get the plans from?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 20:53:25

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

The bracing on the Brune' drawing is more accurate to the average Barbero fan bracing concept. The Lewis plan has some steel string construction conventions mixed into here and there which make it odd. The nut is drawn as on a Martin guitar, for example. Also you have to be careful about building it because it does not fit into most cases. A funny surprise I learned several years ago. Although the plantilla is nice if you like big full guitars.

If you build the Santos, breaking the 19th fret so you leave more space between two fret pieces is kind of characteristic of his work. The sound hole moves up towards the neck. On a Barbero, although not a rule, you may want to drop the sound hole and break the 19th fret a little closer to it's center. I think it looks better to give more fret then less, but on Santos it goes stylistically to break it wider.

Just a few things to chew on.

Generally if you have a scale length you can compensate at the saddle by moving the bridge down a mm to 2 mm depending. But as you see here there has been some talk of compensating the scale itself. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=194989&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1 For your first one it may be wiser to compensate the string length and use a regular non tempered scale length.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2012 22:28:19

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

The lewis plan has two bracing systems. The drawing on Mr. lewis plan is not his concept but a Barbero. The Lewis concept is there as some extra points etc. but its not drawn.
I think the plan is good and for a beginner it has the advantage of being a more standard bracing system, whereas the other Barbero plan is a weirdo. I´m not saying its a bad layout but as a referencial point its not so good. You start building something strange.
I have built many flamneco guitars with a bracing system very close to the one on Lewis´s Barbero plan and they were very nice. The plan is very close to many good Spanish bracing layouts like Torres, Reyes, Santos, etc (7 braces pretty parallel, 2 closing struts). I´m now building another system. Also my own, but Lewis´s is a very good starting point and it´ll be easy to understand many other systems. I personally find that its the best place to start for beginners.
If building a 650 scale, I place the center of the soundhole 15cm from 12th fret and if it a 655 scale, the its 15,5cm.
5mm wide braces, 4mm high on a good quality Euro soundboard more or less 2,2- 2,3mm thick all over the board will make you a good sounding and playing guitar. When finishing the guitar, the edges will be thinner and if you end up with some 2mm on the edges and 2,2mm in the center, then you´ve done it well. BUT remember that thickness is only a helper. It depends on the piece of wood you are working and crossgrain stiffness and weight is a lot more important.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 8:04:25

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks for all the info Anders and Stephen, I have to say that this forum is an amazing inspiration and help for a newbie such as myself! It has been the reason for my renewed interest in building guitars. I almost started about 15 years ago when I started buying a few tools then I got sucked into the real estate boom and started buying old houses, rebuilding them and selling them etc... So I used a whole different set of tools!!! lol. Now that I got out of the business (barely with my shirt) The guitar has taken center stage in my life so to speak... I play a lot and since I have this space for free in a 125yr old building that I rent out I have the perfect opportunity to renew my guitar building passion.

I will have to mull over all the top information for today... I have to make my thickness calipers and another work table for assembly before I do anything else. I have spent enough already on tools and equipment even though I got all my machinery cheap on Craigslist.

I got a nice Dial Indicator for $20 and will make a caliper frame out of plywood that has a big opening towards the back so you can maneuver it into an old or fully constructed guitar.

As a beginner I feel the need to understand where certain numbers come from. I need some clarification with the calculation of the sound hole positioning. Please check my math but it appears that there is only about a 2 mm or less difference in the centering of the soundhole for a 650 as opposed to a 660 scale unless I am missing some other guitarrero secret

Scale...........19th........12th.....Soundhole dia/2.....repositioning to split 19th
650..........433.089......325..............43................................2
660..........439.751......330..............43................................2

650 scale: 433.089 - 325 + 43 - 2 = 149.089mm from 12th fret
660 scale: 439.751 - 330 + 43 - 2 = 150.751mm from 12th fret

I don't want a weird looking guitar with 20 frets or 18 even though it will be my first. I plan to play it and Entre dos Aguas uses fret 19. lol!

Jorge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 14:33:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

As I already wrote you. I´ve never done any guitar math. I´doing things Spanish way and I was just told by an old master to put the center 15 (650) and 16 (660) from the 12th fret. All my guitars have 19 frets and it should be possible to play entre dos aguas on them.
The lewis/barbero plan is a 660 scale and has a 16cm distance from 12th to soundhole center Romanillos classical has a 650scale and 15 cm.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 16:09:22

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I thought his plan was at 160mm because Alicia, the girl who drew the plan for him added a 20th fret? That's why I was so puzzled yesterday until I made the discovery.

I made the thickness caliper today - its rough and ready but ready and it works! I saved $150 because the dial was only $20. I added a stainless rounded tack for the resting head on the opposite side for more accuracy just in case it is tilted at all when measuring. I'll make a trigger later for opening for one handed operation.

J.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 19:59:10

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

As I already wrote you. I´ve never done any guitar math. I´doing things Spanish way and I was just told by an old master to put the center 15 (650) and 16 (660) from the 12th fret. All my guitars have 19 frets and it should be possible to play entre dos aguas on them.

Anders,

Not getting on your case, but I left it kinda open for him to figure out on his own where it the fret lands. There is stylistic difference between some of the older makers and I also just wanted to point out you don't have to be dogmatic about the math. I just said it another way. See I do things the Old California way and since we were only a Colony of Spain we don't get all the news on time.

I think the Lewis original Barbero bracing does work but I think Brune' plans shorter five fan system works fine too. I've done them both with success. I think you could build with either plan on first go and have a good guitar.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 20:25:57

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

quote:

I thought his plan was at 160mm because Alicia, the girl who drew the plan for him added a 20th fret? That's why I was so puzzled yesterday until I made the discovery.

There's thing to deal with on plans. If you make a direct copy of a certain guitar you don't have the plan to get in your way of give you poorly transmitted information.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 20:27:55

JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
Joined: May 18 2011

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

oooo that gauge is nice! I already have a dial indicator too. I don't need a thickness gauge at the moment, but this is pretty sweet. How did you mount the dial indicator?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 20:40:47

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to estebanana)

I agree, I have to find my own way but at the same time I don't want to waste too much wood. That is why I am not rushing into the critical layout stuff until I somewhat understand the hows and whys of the numbers.

Grasshopper. :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 20:42:51

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to El Polaco)

quote:

That is why I am not rushing into the critical layout stuff until I somewhat understand the hows and whys of the numbers.

Draw it out full size with pencil, ruler and T Square- Even if you have the plan this will help you more than math. Draw it out with measurements Anders gave and see what happens. If you have a good guitar to copy, measure and then draw it, you'll learn more that way.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2012 21:21:04

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: Laying out scale (in reply to JuanDaBomb)

Really easy. Just cut through the mounting side of the plywood to the depth and width of the tang on the back of the dial indicator (hopefully you got one with a tang). Then just a small nut and bolt to tighten it up. then put a metal round headed tack or nail into the opposite side where the indicator rests on for better measuring accuracy.

I did it quick so it so is not pretty but it works perfectly. Now I can continue planing and not worry about going through or ending up with a log! lol.