String Bridge height

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Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

String Bridge height

Aout a year or so ago I bought my first flamenco guitar from my local music shop. It's a Joan Cashimira flamenco 105 blanca. I'm now realising that the string height at the bridge is maybe higher than normal. It measures about 10 -11mm on the bass side between sound hole and bridge. I knew nothing much about guitars back then....the guitar just sounded good and price was OK... £1000. Also the Cashimira guitar had some favourable reviews online. But now I'm thinking that the guitar maybe hasn't been 'set up' properly for flamenco, whatever that entails I don't really know.

Is lowering the action recommended and how would I go about this? Do I need to find a specialist luthier or could any guitar repair person do this.

Also how would this effect the sound, fret action etc

Any help would be much appreciated

Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 10:41:16

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

You can do this yourself as long as you are not shy. The measurement at the bridge doesn't really mean anything. It's the 12th fret measurement that indicates how high your action is. action at the 12th fret should be around 2.5mm for flamenco. However, if there are any problem with the guitar, you might not be able to get it down this far.

There are also intonation issues that you might want to consider or improve. Many retailers of guitars don't think intonation is a big issue, so this is up to you.

The forum have discussed this issue so you may find other helpful advice or contrary to mine. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=178943&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=nuts&tmode=&smode=&s=#178943

My method: Measure the distance of string to fret-board at 12th fret. Do this on both sides and note it. Decide how much you want the action lowered and multiply this by 2 (that's the hard bit). [for every 1mm you want it lowered, you will need to take off 2mm off the saddle].

Take the saddle out and mark the saddle with the new measurements on both ends and note whether the saddle is curved. Draw a pencil line (curved or straight) across the saddle. Mark the saddle at the lower part so you know which way the saddle was facing. File the saddle down from the top. I don't like filing it from the bottom as you may not get it straight and I feel that affect the sound. Round off the edge of the saddle (remember intonation before this if you need to fix this). Use fine gauge steel wool or fine wet&dry paper to smooth the finish off and you should be ready to pop it back in, tune up and see how it plays. Measure it again and see if you want to alter it.

If you have ugly buzzing, you've taken it too far and you simply need a new saddle.

A guitar shop usually has a guitar tech who will do all this for you.

One thing I would say is not to do this to a brand new guitar as it may start to settle and then you might have to do it all again, but then, saddles are not too expensive.

Action also need sorted at the nut end. Here's the tool I use. I file each slot down with a set of files on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FILE-SET-12-ROUND-AND-1-FLAT-FILE-FREE-POSTAGE-/250709777933?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3a5f779e0d#ht_5173wt_1127 so you can use the correct size for each slot.

Hope this helps.

_____________________________

Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 22:00:34

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

Forgot you asked about it affecting sound. Yes, you are right to ask. Check out articles on "Break Angle" after you have looked at the reference article. The break angle has an affect on the sound. So if you start off with a bad break angle, you need to sort that before you go any further. There are simple things to sort this out mentioned on the forum.

_____________________________

Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2011 22:03:39

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pawo

Aout a year or so ago I bought my first flamenco guitar from my local music shop. It's a Joan Cashimira flamenco 105 blanca. I'm now realising that the string height at the bridge is maybe higher than normal. It measures about 10 -11mm on the bass side between sound hole and bridge. I knew nothing much about guitars back then....the guitar just sounded good and price was OK... £1000. Also the Cashimira guitar had some favourable reviews online. But now I'm thinking that the guitar maybe hasn't been 'set up' properly for flamenco, whatever that entails I don't really know.

Is lowering the action recommended and how would I go about this? Do I need to find a specialist luthier or could any guitar repair person do this.

Also how would this effect the sound, fret action etc

Any help would be much appreciated

Cheers
Dave

hey.. my view is contrary to steve's view.. Height at the bridge/over sound hole is pretty important..
if it's too high, it's hard for the thumb to keep contact with the soundboard when playing some techniques eg picado, while keeping the same hand shape.

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 0:43:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

I cant play guitars with more than 8-9 mil. at the soundhole.
You can lower the action like suggests. Sometimes its enough, but often the problem is in the neckangle and then its a LOT more complicated

Do these tests and tell us:
What is the distance between top of 12th fret and bottom of 6th string the way the guitar is set up right now. And what is the distance between the soundboard and bottom of the 6th string at THE BRIDGE
And last, what is the thickness of the fingerboard at the nut and at the soundhole?

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 7:58:14

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

I've made some more measuerments as you suggest Anders as accurate as I could..not an easy task

String height at Bridge = 11mm
String height at Soundhole =about the same
12th fret bass sidee = 3mm
12th fret treble side = approx 2.7mm
Fret thickness at nut = 7mm
Fret thickness at soundhole = 5.5 mm

How do these measurements sound?

The fret action is bout right for me...but it is the distance between the strings and the sound board that I am questioning and whether rasguedo will sound more percussive with slightly lower height near bridge...but of course I realise the sound will improve by itself over time with improvements in technique ....still early days for me!
From your remarks I'm beginning to see that there quite a few variables at play here so I think I will tread lightly for now and definitely not try anything myself.
I am going to take the guitar to a Luthier named Steve Eden, whom you may know, who lives a short drive away in Lewes UK. He offered to give a the guitar a look over...

Thanks all for help so far
Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 13:00:17

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

If your measurements are correct you will definitely need to take that guitar to Steven. The neck angle is the problem and this is something you can't fix yourself.
Steven will check it out and weigh the options with you based on the low value of the guitar, cost efficiency and his preference of repair.
Unfortunately a year or more has past as this cheap factory built guitar should have been sent to the reject pile.
Maybe you could take it to a local music store and get some trade in value for it with the purchase of another guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 14:39:14

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders, Skye and Sean, I bow to your superior wisdom. After all, you are the players and makers. I can only reference to what I play and my guitars. Perhaps you have identified a problem I have with electric guitars now. I started as an electric player, but since playing so much on a Nylon strung guitar (Martin Millennium classical design) I find it so much harder to get a comfortable feel with my picking hand (right). The Martin has a raised fretboard which I love. It allows neck taping to be done without any scratches onto the sound top. However, I have heard you speak of action over the sound-hole. Now I get it. I guess we all adapt to the machine we are using, but this knowledge tells me that I might find it hard to do what all you experts do (as my guitar ain't made for the job). I mean - don't get me wrong, I really really love this Martin guitar - fantastic sound and projection, but it is made as a classical. actually I think of it as a rather of classical because of it's sound.

That was refreshing post by you three.
so David, listen to the masters. This is too complicated a job for most people.

_____________________________

Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 15:21:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

Pawo

Your measurements dont sound good. I have a feeling that the guitar has already been compensated in the fingerboard by having a thick fingerboard near the nut and thin at the soundhole. That has most probably been done because of a wrong neck angle.
I think the best would be to sell it and find another one.
I could be wrong. I havent had the guitar in my hands, but from your measurements, I doubt that you can lower the setup more than 1 - 1,5mm and this by changing the frets and shaving the fingerboard.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 19:55:03

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: String Bridge height (in reply to Pawo)

Sean and Anders

So maybe I purchased a guitar with a wrong neck angle for flamenco...well you live and learn...
I will definitely ask Steve Eden to check it over but not sure about going ahead with any adjustments principally because I actually like the guitar...I think it has a nice tone...just maybe not 'muy flamenco'.
Well you live and learn...one day when I think my playing deserves it I will look into purchasing a luthier build....flamenco guitar construction seems to be a very specialist art

Anyway I think I've learnt a little here, so cheers and thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2011 21:13:26