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660mm scale length, or longer; why???   You are logged in as Guest
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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

660mm scale length, or longer; why??? 
I'm sure this has probably been discussed before. But just what are the reasons for having a longer scale length than the standard 650mm?

To some degree I could understand it on a classical guitar, where sustain is important. But why on a flamenco model?

Presumably many flamenco guitars are usually capoed up several frets anyway, so why the longer open string length? Or am I missing something here. . . .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2011 23:05:16
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
I think some players enjoy the longer scale length in light of the fact that they're capo-ing all the time. That way, there's plenty of finger room once the capo is on, rather than the cramped situation that comes from capo-ing on a 650 scale.

Plus you get more projection and pop with the added tension that is the result of a 660+

Though I don't know how it compares to just playing higher tension strings on a standard scale length if more string tension is the goal. Meaning, if the tension is the same, but one has lighter tension strings on a longer scale gtr (vs. heavy tension on a standard length), are there differences in sound?
Probably take an apples to apples comparison, and who has 2 guitars, identical in every manner except for the scale length?!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2011 6:13:14
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
Do you ever try the search funcion of this forum?

Its been discussed a million times and to be honest, it becomes very trivial to read the same thing and write the same thing again and again and again.

Or perhaps its just me who has been here to long.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2011 7:38:12
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
my guitar has this (as I call it) "problem". There is more punch added to the note though, but the normal tension strings are very tight
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2011 7:58:47
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

Do you ever try the search funcion of this forum?

Its been discussed a million times and to be honest, it becomes very trivial to read the same thing and write the same thing again and again and again.

Or perhaps its just me who has been here to long.


... I think you've been here a little longer than a lot of us Anders

I mean... when you think about it... there's only so many topics you can cover on a flamenco forum... by now, the Foro has probably reached the end of its history in terms of all the possible topics you can post on flamenco (including it all... toque, cante, bailes, palmas, guitars, guitar building....)... the only sort of novelty would come from the 'Off Topic' section! lol
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2011 12:31:45
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
The fruit scientists did a conclusive study that determined flamenco players have longer fingers then there classical playing counterparts
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2011 20:20:41
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
A related question is, "Why is 650 mm the standard scale length?"

Reading here, I think I stumbled across the answer.

http://www.floxflorum.com/materials2.php

Up until the 1940s, guitar strings were made of gut. A good quality 650 mm gut string, no matter what the diameter, can't be tuned more than about a half step above the pitch of the high e-string without breaking. That is, if you try to tune a gut string up to f', it will likely break..

When nylon strings came in, you could go to longer scale lengths without breaking the string.

According to the Ramirez site

http://www.guitarrasramirez.com/english/joseramirezIIIEn.html

Jose III went to work as an apprentice in the shop at age 18. This would have been some time from May 1930 to April 1931. He quickly became a fully qualified journeyman and began to experiment with guitar design. He persisted in this despite his father's opposition. The experimental guitars were sold by his father without keeping track of the design changes.

Experimenting with string length, he eventually fixed upon 664 mm as the desired number. This would have to have been after nylon strings became available in Spain some time in the late 1940s.

Here is a 1950 Marcelo Barbero blanca with a scale length of 670 mm, so Jose III wasn't the only one going to longer scales.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/p549-marcelo-barbero-spcy.html

Click on the link, and you get to hear Grisha playing it.

After taking over the business on his father's death in 1957, and perhaps before, Jose III actively pursued his goal of getting a Ramirez into the hands of Segovia. Segovia was known to be looking for an instrument with greater volume and projection than his famous Hauser, to play in the large halls where Segovia was often concertizing.

After a number of tries, Ramirez succeeded in satisfying Segovia with an instrument built in 1959 to Jose III's design by his oficial Manuel Gonzales Contreras. This is the luthier who soon went on his own as "Manuel Contreras", succeeded by his son Pablo "Manuel Contreras II".
However the Ramirez flamencos didn't go above 657 mm, like my 1967 1a blanca, bought new from Ramirez.

Before 1991, when I bought my Manuel Contreras I spruce/Brazilian "doble tapa", he had returned to the standard 650 mm scale. I believe it was a good while before.

In the 1960s and 1970s, most of the prominent Madrid makers, including Contreras and Conde, followed Ramirez to the longer string length. But they have all returned to the standard 650 mm, except by special order.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2011 23:39:10
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
Although I have a slightly bigger than average hand, I dont see any advance in playing scales longer than 650.
For really big guys, I can see an advantage, but a wider nut is much more important.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2011 6:44:40
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
According to Jose Ramirez III (book: Things about the guitar) guitars with a scale length longer than 650mm have been around for quite some time--Manuel used 655mm, Santos used 656mm and made one at 659mm, Esteso used 655, Jose I used a 660 at the end of the century (19th) and Stradivarius made a guitar at 740mm (no typo). The sense I get from JR 3 is the longer scale length supposedly equals more volume and projection and not necessarily greater sustain.

I agree with Anders' statement about the nut width--at least for me as I have long thin fingers and 54mm makes more sense.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2011 9:23:41
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

For really big guys, I can see an advantage, but a wider nut is much more important.


I agree with you Anders... I'm a fairly big guy, and a flamenco guitar feels small in my hands. I like longer scales (say anything around 660), but I also find that nut width is what's really important for big guys like me... and maybe the string spacing at the bridge as well. It can get pretty cramp there if you have big hands.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2011 14:16:21
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to keith) 
The site I linked to

http://www.floxflorum.com/materials2.php

gives this formula to calculate the frequency to which a good quality gut string should be be tuned:

frequency = 220/scale length (meters)

They add:

"With the best quality strings it is a conservative estimate, leaving a safety margin of at least a semitone. For reference, the frequencies of the commonest top string notes are: a' above middle c': 440. g' sharp - 415; g' - 392; f' sharp - 370; f' - 349, e' - 329. Our 60cm lute gives us a frequency of 366.67 Hz, or f'#.

Up to 670 mm, you're not far out of line. 650 mm gives a half-tone safety factor. The 740 mm Stradivari seems to be beyond the pale, if the 1st string is to be tuned to e'.

Thanks for the stuff from Jose III's book. My copy is still packed away from the move.

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

According to Jose Ramirez III (book: Things about the guitar) guitars with a scale length longer than 650mm have been around for quite some time--Manuel used 655mm, Santos used 656mm and made one at 659mm, Esteso used 655, Jose I used a 660 at the end of the century (19th) and Stradivarius made a guitar at 740mm (no typo). The sense I get from JR 3 is the longer scale length supposedly equals more volume and projection and not necessarily greater sustain.

I agree with Anders' statement about the nut width--at least for me as I have long thin fingers and 54mm makes more sense.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2011 15:54:00
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
I am not sure if 650 can really be called "standard" as there are so many guitars floating about with a scale length longer than 650. The Russell Cleveland collection in "The Classical Guitar" provides a good snapshot of guitars built from the Torres days to the modern day and most are longer than 650mm. There is a Ramirez from 1897 that has a scale length of 625mm (yep, a shorty). The two flamenco guitars shown in the book have scale lengths of 657 (Esteso) and 660 (Ramirez). The Esteso was made in 1934 and the Ramirez in 1965). The Ramirez has a 56mm nut--ouch!

As to the question of scale length and sound production (projection, sustain, etc.) I leave that to the luthiers as I can only quote sources.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2011 16:39:10
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
You're right I don't see any advantage of a 650 over a 660 besides everyone knows a 657.3013409865 mm is the only way to go. String spacing and neck shape have a greater impact on playability, I'm sure everyone has tried a 650 that was harder to play then some longer scale guitars. There is no perfect scale length, besides the customers always right so they will get what they want and demand will decide what is made.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 30 2011 20:01:14
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to keith) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: keith
I am not sure if 650 can really be called "standard"


I must admit that I was more influenced by the present day classical world when I called 650 mm "standard". If I recall correctly, 650 mm was Torres' most frequent string length. This passed into the 20th century classical world via Torres' influence on Manuel Ramirez and Hauser. Since Segovia used the latter two luthiers' instruments during much of his career, they influenced buyers and makers.

When Segovia went to the longer scale Ramirez instruments, most classical luthiers and players followed suit, but then mostly returned to the 650 mm scale. Was the return to 650 mm influenced by Bream and Williams with Williams' Fleta and Bream's Bouchet, Hernandez y Aguado, Hausers and Romanillos?

But I'm straying from flamenco...sorry.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2011 0:45:43
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
richard--the use of 650mm as standard was from the original poster but you do make a point--a lot of makers, especially factories, use 650 as their standard length.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2011 9:05:13
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to britguy) 
650 is also called factory standard.

650 is a nice scale length IMHO (in my case, 651,5 when compensated )

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 31 2011 12:12:34
 
nosferatu

 

Posts: 4
Joined: Jun. 5 2011
 

RE: 660mm scale length, or longer; w... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Hi,i play classical guitar and trying to getting back to flamenco,as i posted on my first topic a couple of days ago,had to stop playing for the 5 largests years of my life,no kidding,i started whit a 645mm. but the guitar was never on tune,i never knew about the scale lenght until a few years later,now i´m playing whit a 650mm and it´s O.K. for me,i tried a 660mm. and don´t like the feeling,it´s to hard for "reharsall"?-ensayo-even when i change the strings 1 time in the month,and i think all the strings are calculated for 650mm.if you want more volume(the diference it´s big) you can go 655mm or something like that,but i can´t play 1hr. on concert whit 660mm.sorry,it´s my personal experience,i just avoid big scales.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2011 19:17:53
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