dance choreography "things"

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marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

dance choreography "things"

I want to start being able to recognise more of what is happening in a choreography, when i listen to flamenco i hear all these different things that seem to be part of the structure for that palo

its hard for me to explain because i dont know the spanish words, but some examples would be a remate, or a silencio or escobillia

I want to understand what things the palmists are being aware of during the performance, and what kinds of things that need to be considered with arranging a choreography for dance and guitar and singer

any discussion on the topic is welcome, I dont know how to phrase a specific question, but i am hoping this thread will lead to me finding the words i can use to research all this stuff better

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 6:23:01

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

Oooh this is a long discussion with a lot of room for argument, ehh, different opinions.

The basic overview for anything in flamenco would be
-Guitar intro (falseta, if you're lucky)
-Dancer enters and singer sings the first tones
-Dancer starts footwork (entrada/salida)
-Ending with a break or llamada
(don't get too confused with cierre, remate, llamada etc., all these terms can often be used for the same thing, basically show that one person is done and the next person can start)
-First verse (letra)
-In the letra a break of 1-2 compás (contestacion, not a must)
-Footwork (zapateado, taconeo, basically footwork)
-Ending with a break or llamada
Repeat the above four 1-3 times, not a must
-Dancers main solo (Escobilla)
-Ending with a llamada (usually no break, can kill the momentum)
-Final climax, faster, final singing (macho)

This won't give you a 100% clear overview but should give you the basic elements to look for in your choreographies. Silencio and Castellana are special for alegria.

Don't get too stuck on thinking that there's some sort of secret language with which you can see everything coming and react. Once you've seen everything you can react to it, but it just takes years of doing it with different people. There is a basic structure and while an experienced flamenco will have no problems playing along to a traditional choreography, anything for the stage is rehearsed and not done intuitively.

Hope this gets the ball rolling.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 13:24:28

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

thanks so much for that John O. I will be able to use that information to learn heaps of stuff, awesome reply

I am not looking for any shortcuts, I just want to be aware of what things are happening in flamenco, so that i can eventually be practicing it all

I am really looking forward to hearing everyones thoughts and experience with this subject

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 14:10:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

To add what john wrote, the opening footworks before the first letra can be long but it is all referred to as "the llamada". This differs from an extended footwork (Escobilla) that may come in between letras or after. Getting familiar with the different signals that the footwork is giving you helps to understand better the structure John wrote. It can be an easy mistake at first to assume that footwork will be extended when in fact it was just a llamada.

To tie into the rules for cante accomp thread, it can be the best way to learn the structure of cante because it is often that in rehearsal the letra needs to be "set" so you get a chance to have it all clear so you are not really "following" the singer since you know exactly what he must sing. Or in the case that the singer wants some freedom, you know the singing will be very "cuadrao" or what I call "square box cante".

This is a good way to learn I think and get the compas for singing, but so long as one understands that to NOT sing in the square box is not "wrong" or "out of compas" as many people think after having experience playing for dance.

Point being most dancers won't prefer Agujetas to sing for them even though he is singing very puro solea for example.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 14:58:57

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to Ricardo)

Yeah now that I think of it, they've always been 3 compás at the longest.

Would you give a different name to the footwork with emphasis on the 1 than to the other footwork marking the 12? Here we all say the "escobilla" is that traditional 6/8 rhythm you can feel in 3s. In more modern stuff I see them switching back and forth more than once and inbetween letras, but was the traditional term "escobilla" not saved for that melody/rhythm in alegrias or solea?

quote:

Point being most dancers won't prefer Agujetas to sing for them even though he is singing very puro solea for example.

Yeah, I wondered about that, or is a singer generally always expected to "square it out"? I have had to hold chords 2 or 3 beats longer or shorter for a singer with dance before but never anything too crazy and haven't seen it in Youtube before. For example in Peteneras a singer would also sing pretty square box, right?

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 15:28:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

but was the traditional term "escobilla" not saved for that melody/rhythm in alegrias or solea?

Not sure, but my guess is the term applied at first only to alegrias because the "sweeping" step they did. But musical application of it can be used for any baile to describe the footwork section. Siguiriya, Martinente, Tiento, Taranto, guajira, etc etc. all the same. Not for fandango or sevillanas of course. Sometimes when talking through now a days they just say "pies, pies, pies, pies....ok llamada y corte.....one compas....tapao" etc.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 15:46:08

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

this is great!!!!!!! how does a flamenco player say the equivalent of "you guys rock" if Ole!!!! just isnt enough?

I have been spending a lot of my wind down time trying to find things half as interesting as this to read, so thank you

this is making me want to re approach all the palo I know, and go through all the things i learned to play on guitar, and Identify the pieces that are designed for one of these specific goals

one question, when I am practicing variations of bulerias compas, a few of them I know use contra between the 8 and the 10, what would be some situations where that would be used, my instinct tells me it might be used during a remate, but i am not sure if that is even traditionally correct

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 18:48:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

quote:

how does a flamenco player say the equivalent of "you guys rock" if Ole!!!! just isnt enough?

"Gone Yersel'.." (Pal, Hen or Yooz as the situation dictates)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 18:53:08

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to Ron.M)

thanks Ron, there are many times when I have wanted to say that while reading the foro

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 18:55:04

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

quote:

contra between the 8 and the 10

If you mean a stroke on 7+ and 9+ then starting on 12 again that's a good sign that's you're done with your falseta. If a dancer has finished a pata it could also fit to his/her llamada. It could come at anytime, inspired by how you feel or what a dancer or singer does.

With fiesta stuff there is very little that is "forbidden" if you're going with the flow and not throwing anyone off - it differs depending on where in Spain you are.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 19:40:54

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

Try this for a beginning introduction to dance accompaniment, it explains in detail the structure of an alegrias with audio and tab examples.
Like everything else in flamenco there are variations but if you start by learning this you'll have building blocks.
The best thing is to find a dancer to work with or a dance class to play for. But for homework you might find this helpful.

http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/articles/comp1.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 20:06:38

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Yeah now that I think of it, they've always been 3 compás at the longest.

The more modern dancers I play for commonly have llamada lasting 4 compas in alegrias, bulerias, solea por bulerias. Am I right to think this is usual in modern baile?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 20:39:35

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to orsonw)

I don't know if that's modern, I'd just say it's okay as there's no "rule" about it. Come to think of it I've had a Solea por Buleria dance intro go 6 compás, 4 with some golpes while walking in and 2 the typical "llamada". Yeah, you can call it all llamada, but you can really see the theme followed by a climax, the climax being the llamada. It fit well into the opening falseta. There's rarely a definite rule of thumb with lots of stuff in flamenco, it would really limit creativity.

The important thing really in any case is that you have a clear ending to the opening leaving that energy in the air and the singer knows when to start.

For me there's a footwork theme inbetween letras and there's a llamada. IMO a dancer is usually at the climax after two compás llamada and usually can't take it higher, I'd really have to see it though. Something faster like bulerias okay, but a solea with a four compás llamada with footwork straight through would absolutely kill the moment, I'd imagine.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2011 21:56:47

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

quote:

I know use contra between the 8 and the 10

yeah I was confused when i typed that, im playing through one of the things now, and the contra is actually at the very end of the compas

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 8:48:35

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

I'd just say it's okay as there's no "rule" about it. Come to think of it I've had a Solea por Buleria dance intro go 6 compás, 4 with some golpes while walking in and 2 the typical "llamada". Yeah, you can call it all llamada, but you can really see the theme followed by a climax, the climax being the llamada.

In bulerias, alegrias, solea por bulerias I sometimes use 4 (even up to 6) compas llamada, with some variation within it and a climax, but all fast, heavy footwork. They are what you are calling typical two compas llamada joined together. With a strong dancer with killer compas it can sound great, they just keep building and building.

I enjoy working on creating choreography and trying different things. Some artists I work with just like to get on stage and improvise so more obvious communication is needed, others like tight choreography and then more experimental things can work because it's well rehearsed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 9:26:01

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

In bulerias, alegrias, solea por bulerias I somtimes use 4 (even up to 6) compas llamada, with some variation within it and a climax, but all fast, heavy footwork. With a strong dancer with killer compas it can sound great, they just keep building and building.

This I can imagine, it was just a difference in definition. There's a 6 compás llamada with a 2 compás climax where I'd say there's footwork and the climax containing a movement in the compás signaling an end (step forward, hand up) is what I'd call the "llamada" because to me that's "the call". I think your definition as Ricardo said before is the more correct one, it's all the llamada and you should be paying attention throughout the whole thing.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 9:54:56

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

when there is no singer, does the structure change much? I notice sometimes in this situation people will still play the chords from the letra, but turn it into a falsetta

what things are different with approaching the arrangement if you dont have a singer compared to if you do have one

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 13:38:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marduk

when there is no singer, does the structure change much? I notice sometimes in this situation people will still play the chords from the letra, but turn it into a falsetta

what things are different with approaching the arrangement if you dont have a singer compared to if you do have one

Some dancers are on auto pilot so if there is no singer, playing the chords and such as you would for accompanying cante can work, but musically it is obviously kind of boring. If the dancer is more advanced and knows it is pointless to mark non existent cante, then falseta or falestas can take up the space or get worked out. both approaches work for me depending on the dancer's level.

ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 16:17:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: dance choreography "things&... (in reply to marduk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marduk

quote:

I know use contra between the 8 and the 10

yeah I was confused when i typed that, im playing through one of the things now, and the contra is actually at the very end of the compas

Using contras at the end or after the 10th beat, drive the rhythm forward so others know you are NOT stopping....yet....

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2011 16:19:06